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Adachi: Important update, 8Dio threatens reviewers and competing devs

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I mean, if 8Dio we're so horrible, wouldn't dozens of people be chiming in here with their own horror stories? Instead we have barely a handful, each with a different unrelated story. I truly feel bad that all these people feel wronged, but they're not exactly a consensus.
That might seem like a logical line of reasoning. It can also be an incredibly naive attitude that serves the function of maintaining oppression. Look at the metoo-movement; if men really did all these horrible things, wouldn't more women speak out about it? Or a more adjacent issue: if musical ghostwriters are treated poorly by companies, wouldn't more people come out? (Anne-Kathrin Dern made a video about that here)

So to answer your question: NO, people would not. I think it takes a special kind of ignorance to not see the structural problems with that reasoning. I understand the problem with "he said she said"-cases, but don't be that person. Don't assume the problem isn't there just because you don't hold ALL the information. Several trusted/known members of this community have spoken out versus this company, in a way they haven't against others. That, my friend, is a pattern.

I think your logic can be applied to other settings, where there is more equality ragarding power position. Company vs. individual is not the same, and I think you are well aware of this.
 
It seems to me we have only one alleged case of bullying reported in this thread, one alleged business he said/she said, an accusation of no pay offered, and a couple, or possibly three, alleged threats of a law suit.

if we were to look deeply into any company that deals with thousands of customers and businesses, wouldn't we see the same or worse?

I mean, if 8Dio we're so horrible, wouldn't dozens of people be chiming in here with their own horror stories? Instead we have barely a handful, each with a different unrelated story. I truly feel bad that all these people feel wronged, but they're not exactly a consensus.

I said before that trial by forum is a bad idea and I stand by that. And hopefully Mike won't delete this post like he has my others...
By the same token, these kinds of claims are rare. So rare that I can't think of another example of reports where a sample-library developer or instrument maker has threatened the possibility of legal action over reviews or comments.

Copyright infringement? Yeah, sure. But that's not what's at issue here.

And there are other examples of companies behaving badly, so it's not as if 8Dio is being singled out unusually. It's just that this kind of thing is rare overall, and that's why it's remarkable. ReFX has apparently cut off users' ability to upgrade if they don't like what's said online. The videos and forum posts that allege this are easy to find.

Then there are the issues of non-delivery. NI reneging on the ability to provide an authorisation mechanism for EoL software is a case there.

So, let's not pretend this is all about ganging up on one company for other reasons. You don't see this kind of stuff happening because it mostly doesn't happen at all.
 
"If everyone else is doing it then it's not an issue"


"They only did it a couple of times. It's all good. No worries."
If people do bad things, it's an issue. If they haven't done bad things in YEARS, then I have to assume they have learned and grown, and it seems to me that this handful of alleged disputes happened quite some time ago. You may not like the way 8Dio defends itself in this forum, but in the absence of dozens of contemporary complaints, I refuse to condemn them for alleged bad acts in the past.

This will be my last post on the matter. I'm not big on cancel culture.
 
I'm just here anxiously anticipating the release of a sample library featuring ultra-deep sampled self-righteous flowery waffling, with so many lines of code it would make Solomon blush.
Bonus patch will be a shoutout of love to all of the haters out there! (Yes, love!)
 
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I don’t know that I feel it incumbent on the business to clarify (“correct”) what an individual has posted. That might not even be appropriate. Arguably the business might not be in the right by sharing the details of the private communication, if there have been follow-ups, etc. Particularly if the individual hasn’t shared that info. In my experience there’s almost always more to a story, too. Who’s responsible for ensuring all relevant details get explained?
All they have to do is say "No we didn't send legal threats to Mario & Cory & Daniel James & Embertone & others." If that was false that would be the first & most important thing to say.

They could also say "that was us back then, we are learning" but... look at how Anne, DJ, Sarah all have to come forward and say AGAIN "no here is what actually happened" after every post from 8dio.

There are companies that work hard to issue free updates, that pay session player royalties, that interact with this community & take feedback. And in Spitfire's specific case, they have a 3rd party platform called TrustPilot handling their customer reviews. That means you can trust reviews are only from verified purchasers, and the site owner can't delete those reviews afaik.
 
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It seems to me we have only one alleged case of bullying reported in this thread, one alleged business he said/she said, an accusation of no pay offered, and a couple, or possibly three, alleged threats of a law suit.

if we were to look deeply into any company that deals with thousands of customers and businesses, wouldn't we see the same or worse?

I mean, if 8Dio we're so horrible, wouldn't dozens of people be chiming in here with their own horror stories? Instead we have barely a handful, each with a different unrelated story. I truly feel bad that all these people feel wronged, but they're not exactly a consensus.

I said before that trial by forum is a bad idea and I stand by that. And hopefully Mike won't delete this post like he has my others...
8DIO is a small company (when comparing to actual large corporations) where these allegations of lawsuit threat are being issued by those that lead the company. The allegations are also being made by people that have gained a level of trust in the VI-C community for years.

The response by many people in the forum that believe the accused is to simply stop supporting 8DIO by not buying their products anymore unless 8DIO's leadership has a huge change of heart and acknowledges the wrongdoing.

Can you help us understand what your threshold of proof is for this scenario where those in charge of a small business are issuing threats out to their customers. Can you also help us understand what you believe our reasonable ethical response should be?
 
It truly baffles me how some people in this thread have downplayed the threatening behavior by 8Dio.

“It’s been years since they legally threatened people.”

“It was only one person they legally threatened.”

I’m quite sure it’s much easier to make these kinds of ridiculous statements if you weren’t the one being targeted.

But the problem with this type of perspective is that it severely sweeps the victims under the rug, invalidates the negative experiences they had to endure through, and doesn’t encourage anyone else who may have been victimized to come forward. I’m not saying there are others, but if there are, the sheer attempt to justify 8Dio’s behavior in any way is no motivation for the victims who may be sitting quietly on the sidelines.

8Dio has had every opportunity in this thread to apologize to the people who have been threatened or treated poorly by them, instead they made matters worse by ignoring certain claims, and downplaying their incredibly unprofessional behavior, and that’s why this thread keeps beating with a healthy heartbeat. The well deserved apology is completely absent.

And as much as some people might choose to believe that this is some type of overreaction by the members of VI, i can assure you it’s not.

This isn’t a witch hunt. This isn’t an angry mob with pitchforks. This isn’t cancel culture. This also isn’t just a few Karens who had a bad experience at their local Burger King, because their order got messed up.

This is a situation involving some of the most well respected musicians in our community who have either been seriously threatened or just treated poorly by a certain developer. There’s a pattern here, and it’s an obvious one, so it was only a matter of time before this situation came to a head.

And no matter how much time has passed, musicians truly helping musicians aren’t going to turn a blind eye to this situation, and I’m glad to see the overwhelming majority of participants in this thread have not.
 
Who ever is calling for canceling anyone is just as bad as 8Dio imo.
Calling out abusive behaviour is as bad as being abusive? I've seen this argument a bunch of times before, and it wrecks my head every time I see it. I suppose you believe that they are actually being 'cancelled,' as opposed to criticised for acting poorly, which naturally can have a PR impact, but is by no means a cancellation. It's also very much self-inflicted, in the actions themselves and in the response.

But they're probably over protective and possibly a bit paranoid even which leads them to make mistakes like everyone did in their lives at some point.
For this to work, they would have had to own up to their actions, which is how real 'mistakes' are actually dealt with and moved on from. Or, if they've done no wrong - deny them! Instead we've seen a consistent pattern of what seems like deliberately harmful behaviour, followed by a series of deflections.

They'd be pure evil if that was the case and i don't buy it.
So it appears that if whatever people say happened, happened, that would make them 'evil' - so you'd rather not believe these things happened? Surely a more realistic perspective is that anyone can do something bad without being inherently evil. You can admit fault, and move on. You don't have to dig your heels in and defend bad behaviour when it's presented to you, just because it's an unsavoury thing to accept.
 
So with that massive vowel movement of a comment, I respectfully think we should stop with this circus.
"Hey everybody, I've just said a whole pile of stuff, and shared my opinions that are contrary to what almost everyone else has been saying, so now let's stop the discussion so I can have the last word."

It's always amusing when people do that. ;)

You do understand that the thread had pretty much ended. But now you just made it so I'm going to have to let it continue so this can all play out, right? I'd love to lock the thread, but as with yesterday when 8dio decided to end Adagio 1, I'm forced to keep it open so people can discuss.

To everyone in general - Note that I'll be deleting almost all posts since yesterday, whenever it is that I finally lock the thread. (Probably including this post of mine, but I'll leave Charlie's first post.) I'll probably also do some of the usual cleanup today.

Until then, there a couple things :
Do I think their responses to the onslaught of negative comments were worded in the best way? Probably not.
Neither 8Dio or Soundpaint employs a large staff. A larger company would have probably had a PR rep post on here in response to this thread.
They don't need a PR firm, since they have a guy right here who knows the forum really well, and was trying to help them out. (I'm tempted to post my email to them, in case anyone doubts my sincerity. I even told them how to be a star with Sarah! It's not that hard.)

Recall that I actually wrote a response for them that they could have simply pasted into a post. They didn't use that. In fact, they decided not to apologize at all.

So you're fine with that? You believe Cory is due no apology? You believe Mario is due no apology? 8dio gets a pass for that, because you believe Troels and Tawnia are hopelessly inarticulate and incapable of forming the words? And unwilling to simply paste a response I freaking gave them? This is excusable to you?

And you seriously think there are other sample developers who have done this even once? (I don't think even East West has ever done that.)

The main thing that sticks out to me, though, is ... color me suspicious, but methinks you've communicated privately with Troels or Tawnia about this whole affair. (My guess is Tawnia.) Nothing wrong with that, of course. Still, it's worth noting, because there are a few tells in your post, the biggest one being this:

I can also imagine how they might also be reticent to share info that could be embarrassing for someone else, perhaps even refusing to do so because of it.
What an odd thing to "imagine." What could possibly be "embarrassing" to one of the claimants that would have anything whatsoever to do with this topic? And apparently so embarrassing that 8dio is continuing to let people believe the various claims against 8dio, rather than embarrass the person who is apparently lying about them.

Seems like a really odd thing to just imagine all on your own. I wonder how that bizarre scenario could have occurred to you ...?

Here's what I think happened. I could be wrong, of course, but my guess is Tawnia sent you the same story that she sent me, and that she apparently sent Sarah as well. The "embarrassing" claim she makes is silly. (Not to mention it betrays something she was probably told in confidence.)

And as Sarah said, the notion that she's holding back out of respect for this person is faux-kindness. Because this alleged "embarrassment" has *nothing* to do with the validity of people being bullied and threatened. It's a distraction (not to mention an attempted character attack), in sheep's clothing.
 
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I lack the time to write this in extended form, so this will be kind of a bullet-pointed vignette version. As some posts by others have asked a question this seeks to gesture towards an answer to, I hope Mike will let it remain:

1) Forest vs. Trees: I understand the correctly-founded urge to divide this topic into, first, accusations of intimidation via legal and doxxing threats, and second, the Adachi Incident. As a means of figuring out what happened, (and moderating the thread fairly), that makes sense.

2) But it also loses something. Because taken together, the whole picture points to an underlying reason this thread has longevity and interest. 8DIO is a business. What kind?

3) We on VI-C and elsewhere compose with technologically mediated tools. Instrument making in this space has a personality and two broad craftsmanship types. I'll crudely call them: A) Parade of Shiny Objects; and B) Deep Flexibility. Most major devs have produced libraries exhibiting both kinds of craftsmanship. Some have only released one kind. The catalogues of some have a rather high ratio of A to B.

4) Businesses, including sample devs, change over time as their capacities change. Some have what I'd call an extractive phase, with a lot of A)s released to keep the lights on and/or enable future development, followed by a more contributive phase, high points where B) increases or dominates. Flagship products, classics. Pace Nick @Quantum Leap , Hollywood Orchestra seems to qualify as the latter.

6) Henson (Spitfire), apparently had a bad experience here and left. I don't know the details of that. From a distance, however, it appears that he absorbed certain insights faster than did others and changed SF's posture accordingly: This is an arts community. There is commerce. But its raison d'etre is arts and expressive material and collaboration. Without that, it's a dreary mall. Spitfire still releases shiny objects here and there, but there is a new community of contributors, small devs and artists, funded and unfunded, but all promoted by various means. Ecosystem. Art House. Some of 8dio's actions have been very un-Art House.

7) Adachi was a TON of work to make. A ton. I've done this kind of work. It requires a rigorous and forensic ear and a borderline autistic level of commitment to detail. There is "Love," the HR/PR version, and then there is The Love, which is commitment to the unseen artists who will use these tools by providing them maximum flexibility and expressiveness. To my mind, Adachi is one of the clearest examples of The Love in recent memory. Calling it a "fan project" and "taking advantage of someone else's work" sent up all sorts of red flags.

8) A sample dev must keep the lights on. If part of that involves 1) recording the session 2) editing and coding in a time-restricted, disciplined way and 3) releasing and moving on to the next project, then so be it.

9) But a corollary to 8 is: if someone is willing to do the tedious, time-consuming and exacting work to get the instrument from category A) to B), above, without infringing on your rights and also increasing your likely sales by improving the expressiveness of the library, they should be able to do that and to sell it for what the market will bear. This seems obvious and highly topical to me. Urs Heckmann (U-He, Diva, etc etc.) for example, does not get defensive when someone rearranges his material and sells products that rely on his own products, which users still must buy, in order to work. They're called patch libraries. Users know what they're getting. There will be hits and misses. Homebrews are fine. Musicians are craftspeople. Not mall patrons.

10) Lastly and, bear with me here: The Bay Area is a character in this story. I was there in tech for more than a decade, and Silicon Beach for another. "When Troels and Tawnia met in Silicon Valley...." If someone had said to me any time in the last decade, "hey, I'm going to start a sample development company in the Bay Area!" I would have replied "You're a crazy person and that is a crazy, unsustainable idea, but good luck." The place brings out the best and the worst in human beings because the economics and the culture compel it. Fish don't know they're wet. Best place to come up with a new sample playback technology for Soundpaint? Probably. But definitely not the only one. And maybe not the best one given where music sits in the big picture now. There are costs beyond the monetary to needing one's elbows to be that sharp and one's profit margin that high, and to the decisions one feels obligated to make.

11) The proof of work is in the output. Soundpaint exists now. Worth the alleged abusive behavior? No way. The future is unwritten: I like Soundpaint's potential. When sample libraries are developed and/or modified for it specifically, I think it will come into its own. But how it will be deployed in a business model is still an open question. Will it be another case of proprietary consolidation of profit, artistic credit and control? That remains to be seen. At this moment, given the way this thread has played out, given the evidence of all behaviors described and exhibited by 8DIO up to this point, the signs are not good. There is commerce; yet this is an arts community. The wise will instantiate the former solidly in the context of the latter.
 
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Can we stop spiraling around these same few points? I didn't want to comment at all here, I just wanted to read along to know what's happening in the community, but these comments are too unreasonable and illogical to ignore because they keep coming back to stir things up again despite being objectively wrong both on their face and on deeper levels.

1 - "These are all allegations of things that happened so long ago, they might have changed."

For one, they'd need to actively demonstrate that they've changed which I see no sign of, but more importantly look at Mike Greene's summary. It spans across pretty much a full decade, from 2010 or earlier to somewhere around 2018 (that year could be off but that's really not even relevant) JUST around allegations of legal threats. If they didn't improve between 2010-2015, give me a reason to believe they changed between 2018-2023 and then we can talk. Also, they're still behaving vindictively right now by eliminating the option to get the version 1s. This one is so straightforward. Do we expect Lucy to pull Charlie Brown's ball away? Why or why not?

2 - "It was only a handful of people, out of thousands of customers."

For one, that's not an excuse, but more importantly notice how that handful of people just so happens to be the most trusted and respected figures related to this forum. Literally if you asked me to name the top ten, half of that list has shown up in this story. If that's not important context to you, you're missing something. I'll come back to that in the next one.

3 - "so it's really just three legal threats, two stories of possible bad faith negotiations and underpayment, the suspiciously timed discontinuation of an actual product option, and a slew of stories from trusted and respected forum members across a span of over a decade"

For one, you can hear it, right? When I word it like that, you can hear the obvious--this type of post is an attempt to downplay a clear pattern, but more importantly, you may again be missing the point. These individuals are likely targeted BECAUSE of their high profile. 8dio knows their words carry weight and that's why they're so aggressively defensive. Saying "they only pick on influential people" is like saying "that thief only robs the elderly and the disabled." Yeah, that means they choose impactful targets. It doesn't mean they're 99.9% good.
 
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Like in a well-written miniseries, the ongoing hope for an emotionally healthy resolution of the interpersonal and emotionally salient issues illuminated in this thread has been a cliffhanger that kept bringing me back to view each next installment. The ongoing unanswered question… will there be a surprise powerful resolution?

Sadly, over repeated installments, I have become discouraged to hope there will be a resolution in the offing as could only be delivered by one particular principle actor. Despite the fact that really good dialog lines have already been suggested such that even an insincere cut and paste could move things in that direction.

But no, my sense of hope has worn away for a Hollywood ending to this series. Yet, there is a different ending that seems to be accumulating… actually one even better than I expected. Especially on the internet.

What now brings me back is the accumulated healing and wisdom offered by so many participants in the thread that are reaching out to send emotional balm to the injured, to instruct how to write a script that goes deeper and truly resolved interpersonal conflict, that goes beyond the typical zero-sum-game.

Seeing how that is the majority share of where this thread is at now goes beyond what I could have expected. I am overwhelmed (in such a good way) by how many deeply caring and conscious contributions have been made by so many in this thread.

And I hope that has been at least somewhat healing to those whose injuries we have been discussing. One of the most healing medicines for trauma and deep emotional injury is to no longer feel alone in it. There are so many clearly caring posts in this thread, it raises my spirits… and I hope others' spirits... and that is now what I now come back to the thread to feel.
 
Finally, and yes a tangent for a moment; I want to applaud 8Dio for being loud and proud supporters of the LGBTQ community, and working hard to ensure their spaces like Discord remain safe for all users.
As a gay man, I somewhat resent your trotting out this LGBTQ+ support by 8dio as if it somehow helps to balance out the other, alleged (but documented) transgressions.

None of the other Discords I'm on have a dedicated channel for LGBTQ+. I can't think of any other vendors in a similar market space who make a show of their LGBTQ+ support -- and I don't believe it's because they are anti-Alphabet-People bigots.

It seems there's a very different kind of "stonewall" going on here.

Humbly,

Charlie
I imagine Tolstoy ended up being much humbler.
 
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