Adachi: Important update, 8Dio threatens reviewers and competing devs

[Corda1983]

Like or don’t like them. That’s your choice. But let’s stop this back and forth and become civil again. Let’s give the time necessary to clean the blood stains out of the carpet?!

I think the merry-go-round continues because quite disturbing claims have been made and not been refuted.

At this stage most people just want to know: did these instances of bullying happen or not? If they didn’t, they should be strongly refuted and maybe challenged. If they did happen, there should be a pretty whole hearted apology without conditions or excuses attached. The fact that there has been no refutation but a lot of attempts to explain and excuse is why things continue to trundle on.

I don’t think there’s any bloodstains, there’s just a few facts that need to be established. If they were forthcoming and the people at fault apologized unreservedly and committed to moving forward positively, this thread would probably be closed.

 

[Orlu]

I don’t think I could make an educated response on the rest of what you said without knowing the business practices of other developers. I’m sure there are some companies that go beyond what they “need” to do, but I have no idea what the average guys out there actually do.

I'm not sure how that's relevant. I doesn't really matter if they all do it, or just 8DIO. Even IF all developers would act in the same way 8DIO does (which they don't), it would still be amoral, destructive and appalling behavior that should be called out and acted upon.

 

[EvilDragon]

but I have more respect for owners who are showing up, interacting, and directly addressing what has been asked of them.

Except they haven't been doing that here.

 

[gamma-ut]

Let’s please not make this resource be Musicians Helping Musicians Destroy Musicians. That will only limit possibilities and opportunities for all of us.

But you're cool with bullying behaviour as long as it's from people you like? OK, good to know.

 

[edhamilton]

Companies should not threaten lawsuits against users, reviewers, forum posters. Nor should they have an attorney do so on their behalf.

Its that simple.

Users and potential customers are free to share their negative experiences and vote with their wallets.

Don't get lost in the weeds on this one. Its only complicated if you lose sight of the fact that no company should ever threaten legal action against buyers of its products that then use their rights to free speech to criticize those products.

 

[CharlieArtsGuy]

Companies should not threaten lawsuits against users, reviewers, forum posters. Nor should they have an attorney do so on their behalf.

Its that simple.

Users and potential customers are free to share their negative experiences and vote with their wallets.

Don't get lost in the weeds on this one. Its only complicated if you lose sight of the fact that no company should ever threaten legal action against buyers of its products that then use their rights to free speech to criticize those products.

Honest question: have there actually been a flood of buyers of their products who have said they were threatened in any such way? And implied is the idea that one is too many. For just this question lets set aside the ~4 folks that have been mentioned in this thread for other reasons.

I’m genuinely unaware of any group of customers being threatened. If I’ve missed actual factual claims of that, someone let me know.

 

[Corda1983]

Fair enough. Maybe I’m in a minority on this one but if any issues were outstanding and needed to be addressed, be that clearing the air or any apologies, I would assume that would be and remain a private matter between those involved.

But I think that’s the heart of the whole problem. If these allegations are true, why should individuals be scared into not sharing their opinions with the threat of legal action? Disputes can and should probably be dealt with privately but if someone is bullying you into not sharing your fair opinion with the threat of material damage, that goes beyond a dispute.

 

[CharlieArtsGuy]

But I think that’s the heart of the whole problem. If these allegations are true, why should individuals be scared into not sharing their opinions and not telling their side of the story with the threat of legal action? Disputes can and should probably be dealt with privately but if someone is bullying you into not sharing your fair opinion with the threat of material damage, that goes beyond a dispute.

I think we share the same opinion when it comes to disputes.

Where things get less obvious is when a hypothetical issue arises. I don’t know that I feel it incumbent on the business to clarify (“correct”) what an individual has posted. That might not even be appropriate. Arguably the business might not be in the right by sharing the details of the private communication, if there have been follow-ups, etc. Particularly if the individual hasn’t shared that info. In my experience there’s almost always more to a story, too. Who’s responsible for ensuring all relevant details get explained?

But much of this has been talked to death in this thread, and I don’t want anyone to have to rehash discussions. Just my two cents worth. Thanks

 

[Corda1983]

I think we share the same opinion when it comes to disputes.

Where things get less obvious is when a hypothetical issue arises. I don’t know that I feel it incumbent on the business to clarify (“correct”) what an individual has posted. That might not even be appropriate. Arguably the business might not be in the right by sharing the details of the private communication, if there have been follow-ups, etc. Particularly if the individual hasn’t shared that info. In my experience there’s almost always more to a story, too. Who’s responsible for ensuring all relevant details get explained?

But much of this has been talked to death in this thread, and I don’t want anyone to have to rehash discussions. Just my two cents worth. Thanks

I just think you have to say "no legal action was ever threatened or implied" or "we did imply legal action would be used and realize now this was a mistake on our part, we apologize unreservedly and won't do it again". Any details or nuances can spring forth from there.

 

[gamma-ut]

Uhm… what? I specifically mentioned buyers of products because that was what was being discussed in the comment I was responding to with that.

I believe the people who claim to have been threatened by 8Dio were actually customers (at least at some point): that's how they were able to review the products as far as I can tell.

EDIT: And I'm wondering why it's just customers that matter in this instance?

 

[CharlieArtsGuy]

I believe the people who claim to have been threatened by 8Dio were actually customers (at least at some point): that's how they were able to review the products as far as I can tell.

EDIT: And I'm wondering why it's just customers that matter in this instance?

I may be mistaken, but that’s not how I’ve understood it. Admittedly it’s nearly 4am here and I could just be misremembering. Regardless my point isn’t to rehash the same discussion that has gone on for hundreds of posts. It was to call for reflection and cooler heads to prevail.

(The reason that was focusing on paying customers was it was the reply to which I was responding.)

I hate to cut this short but I do need to get up in about 3.5 hours.

 

[AndyP]

I think one point that is also at issue here is:

A non-ordered review of a product always reflects the opinion and experience of a user who tests a product and shares the results with others.

If I as a product developer market my product, then I have to expect that someone will not like this product. One of the purposes of a review is to highlight both the positive and the negative. That is what most users want to see.

If a product manufacturer now contacts these people and threatens them with legal consequences because they don't like the review, then this is a questionable development.

That's what this is about and 8Dio has not even begun to comment on this accusation. It was rather talked around it.

As long as these accusations stand in the room and are not answered satisfactorily, the reputation will probably not change much. That's what people here are interested in, and it doesn't look good.

I can't judge whether all the accusations are true, but there is some statements that raises serious questions.

Reviews of products that borrow independently from the manufacturer are especially important for us, because most libraries can only be purchased without the right of return. It is interesting to see independent tests.

I would also like to know in the context of reviews if it was paid for or if an NFR copy was provided. And even this circumstance should include honest and critical reviews. Otherwise it is just "advertising and marketing" that hides weaknesses and errors.

Of course, there is the possibility that someone deliberately gives a bad rating in a review. Or only highlights the weak points. This is probably a point that Troels addresses when talking about people who work for the competitor, whether on a permanent basis or as a freelancer.

Proof, reverse proof, that's probably hard to do.

The correct reaction to a review that one finds unobjective or unfair should then also be purely factual and there is the possibility to point out a reviewer's mistake and to show how it can be better or is correct. This can be done privately and the reviewer can then correct his mistake, if it was a mistake.

Exactly such things happen here in the forum, from musician to musician. You help each other, ask questions and get answers. If you do something wrong, others give you the hint how to do it better or how to do it right.

That's how it works and not otherwise! A respectful interaction with each other, whether musician, customer or developer is mandatory!

Bad reviews are always unpleasant, but that is always part of the job and you have to learn to deal with it.

I would not like to kick anyone in the shins here. Rather, such a thread serves to clarify things and to be able to put things right. And to make it better in the future.

 

[Jamaha]

I may be mistaken, but that’s not how I’ve understood it. Admittedly it’s nearly 4am here and I could just be misremembering. Regardless my point isn’t to rehash the same discussion that has gone on for hundreds of posts. It was to call for reflection and cooler heads to prevail.

(The reason that was focusing on paying customers was it was the reply to which I was responding.)

I hate to cut this short but I do need to get up in about 3.5 hours.

Asking for 'cooler heads to prevail' while routinely ignoring or dismissing the concerns of everyone affected in this thread (this does include customers, the 4 named included) couldn't be a less constructive approach - in fact this is exactly the kind of hole-digging from the developer that has led to so much frustration, and prolonging of the discussion. Simply not wanting to address the issue yourself, doesn't mean that others should be quiet - that's not what a supportive creative community is about.

You say that one customer threatened is too many, but bizarrely don't want to acknowledge the truth of what anyone has said (and quite thoroughly evidenced) here. I suggest you go back and read it (on some decent sleep!), rather than falling back on truisms such as some elusive missing 'context' (so much relevant context has already been provided) or there being two sides to any debate (as we've established, the claims have neither been denied nor apologised for, which is incriminating in itself - it would be very easy to do the former if they were actually guiltless).

 

[Kuusniemi]

I feel like I need to participate with my thoughts as well. First off I personally have never had bad dealings with 8Dio so I do not have any ill will towards them even though I have heard bad experiences from others (will not share any of those as it is hearsay if I do repeat them). I have used their products and there have been times theirs was the products that saved the day.

But as a developer of my own sound design things this gives me pause. I had been very interested in the Soundpaint platform (a free player with creative possibilities, yay!) but reading the stories and replies from both sides makes me worried what would happen if I keep developing things for Soundpaint and they are not received well by 8Dio? What about when I want to develop things for other platforms (I have no direct association with any other company as that is how I want to keep it but like to use different platforms) as well, will I be bullied and threatened with legal action? I do not know, but the answers here are not reassuring.

When I started doing my thing a few years ago I pondered a lot on how I want to do things. I came down to two things I want to aspire to: ethical behavior and longevity. Both are things I would hope more business would concentrate on instead of maximal growth and fast profits. Both also require you to take care of your customers and fellows.

Like others have pointed out mistakes do happen. And that is just how it is. How we act after mistakes is what matters. We are passionate people and tempers run heated because we feel strongly about things. But that is no way a business should conduct themselves. Even though music is about emotion and passion, the actual business of selling a product to another person is not. A bad review (and a review is always a personal thing, what works for one, doesn't at all work for another) should not get a business agitated. A negotiation gone bad should not get a business agitated. If you have a tendency to react with emotion, then you should actively try and calm yourself before reacting.

What I feel keeps this thread going is the fact that people want to hear that these things are not true, that they are misinterpretations, an error in communication, which happen all the time. And the hope that if they are true they be remedied. I hope for that but have not seen signs of such a thing happening.

 

[gamma-ut]

But as a developer of my own sound design things this gives me pause. I had been very interested in the Soundpaint platform (a free player with creative possibilities, yay!) but reading the stories and replies from both sides makes me worried what would happen if I keep developing things for Soundpaint and they are not received well by 8Dio?

This is something I hope 8Dio takes note of and understands why their historical and current positions are counterproductive. Kontakt built up its leadership position by encouraging an entire ecosystem to build up around it. And there are plenty of other examples from other markets.

If you've got content producers thinking "I'm not sure this might be worth the hassle, I think I'll stick with Kontakt or Sfz or whatever", you're already falling behind in being able to develop a healthy ecosystem around your stuff because other options are available (albeit not with those specific features).

 

[Sevenfold]

Hey everyone! I’m a longtime lurker and very infrequent poster, which means almost no one here knows me. But I feel compelled to share my thoughts here. I do hope you’ll spare a few moments to read them.

I don’t know what in the world this thread has become, but the barren wasteland we are left with is rather embarrassing, if I’m being honest.

Fellow lurker here, thanks for delurking me for a moment before I go back. Just gotta say that this thread has been anything but an embarrassment for VIC, from my view. For me there is an intangible element to this thread, emotional but deeply rooted beyond just this one storyline. My hope is probably the opposite of yours, that more music and creative types read as much of this as they can to understand the environment that they choose to work. While music is often amazing and liberating, it's also frustrating, scary and sometimes filled with the "intangibles" discussed here. Why should I expect this thread to be anything different? Why would I be surprised that composers share in story form rather than just facts and figures?

When I've shared my own stories of bullies, legal threats, etc, I've been surprised to hear back similar stories. Hearing other users shared there stories are like group therapy lol. If I wait for all the concrete proof that some people suggest before reacting, I doubt it will happen and it's actually missing the point. These situations don't end up resolved that neatly and then it's all just swept under the rug again. But I can learn the signs, learn how to better handle tough situations when they arise. Just reread this again and take notes, won't cost you a cent and its raw and uncut (well Mike might not agree to the latter). Also, seeing how well the conversation has been handled is actually impressive to me, not at all a put off.

 

[Evans]

When I've shared my own stories of bullies, legal threats, etc, I've been surprised to hear back similar stories. Hearing other users shared there stories are like group therapy

Very important two sentences!

 

[robgb]

It seems to me we have only one alleged case of bullying reported in this thread, one alleged business he said/she said, an accusation of no pay offered, and a couple, or possibly three, alleged threats of a law suit.

if we were to look deeply into any company that deals with thousands of customers and businesses, wouldn't we see the same or worse?

I mean, if 8Dio we're so horrible, wouldn't dozens of people be chiming in here with their own horror stories? Instead we have barely a handful, each with a different unrelated story. I truly feel bad that all these people feel wronged, but they're not exactly a consensus.

I said before that trial by forum is a bad idea and I stand by that. And hopefully Mike won't delete this post like he has my others...

 

[Pier]

if we were to look deeply into any company that deals with thousands of customers and businesses, wouldn't we see the same or worse?

"If everyone else is doing it then it's not an issue"

I mean, if 8Dio we're so horrible, wouldn't dozens of people be chiming in here with their own horror stories?

"They only did it a couple of times. It's all good. No worries."

 

[Corda1983]

It seems to me we have only one alleged case of bullying reported in this thread, one alleged business he said/she said, an accusation of no pay offered, and a couple, or possibly three, alleged threats of a law suit.

if we were to look deeply into any company that deals with thousands of customers and businesses, wouldn't we see the same or worse?

I mean, if 8Dio we're so horrible, wouldn't dozens of people be chiming in here with their own horror stories? Instead we have barely a handful, each with a different unrelated story. I truly feel bad that all these people feel wronged, but they're not exactly a consensus.

I said before that trial by forum is a bad idea and I stand by that. And hopefully Mike won't delete this post like he has my others...

I don't think the whole "unless there are hundreds of allegations it's not so bad" argument stands up.

I actually don't think it's a trial by forum - it's just that respected members of the community have felt compelled to share their stories and those stories have not been met with either refutation or apology, which some people are finding a bit concerning. If it didn't happen, just say it didn't happen. And if it did happen, acknowledge it and admit and accept it's unbecoming behavior that has now come to light. Like Mike said, redemption is nearly always available and none of us are perfect, just own up to stuff if it transpires you didn't handle situations well and causes measurable distress and alarm to innocent people for sharing their opinion. We all recognise life isn't black and white and we can all be the victims and perpetrators of these sorts of actions, but accountability is important.