Menu
What's new
By:
Filters

Am I even close to what it takes?

A

Ad_Astra

Member
So, I'm initially a metal guy. Been playing mainly guitar since early 90's, took piano lessons before that and still play a bit. Been composing and making music my whole life. Mostly melodic metal but really into instrumental guitar music in the style of Steve Vai, Joe Satriani etc. Nothing fancy in there.

For the last year I've been noodling with Dorico and doing some orchestral stuff. I do with NotePerformer and EWQL Hollywood Orchestra. Would be interested to do something more. I'm having my day job and income but always hoping for music being more than just a hobby.

I am self taught guitar player, not too sophisticated with music theory but I know basics. I mostly rely on my ears

The question is, for here on VI there seems to be a lot of pros around, am I even remotely close to what it takes?

Here's something I've done with orchestra. These are mainly scetches and and the purpose is the music (compose-wise), not the quality of sound nor realism. Don't know if I am violating rules for posting these here, so sorry for that.

A horror-ish ambient thing:


Some adventure ideas just piled together


Something again:


Something more:


-------------

And then some examples about that I've done before

Guitar instrumental #1


Guitar instrumental #2


And here's something I am proud, for getting my teens' favorite singer to sing one of my songs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_mHNfvSHBM

And here's a track from my previous band. We made two full length albums with 99% being my compositions
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jolqHCMIp4A
Click to read more...
 
Last edited:
Compose-wise I honestly think your orchestral ideas already sound fantastic, lively, with lots of different colors and variation!

It really is the mixing and MIDI programming I would rather improve here, but that's not the point.

Definitely keep it going!

"Am I even close to what it takes"
-> I think you're well past that point
 
Bluemount Score said:
Compose-wise I honestly think your orchestral ideas already sound fantastic, lively, with lots of different colors and variation!

It really is the mixing and MIDI programming I would rather improve here, but that's not the point.

Definitely keep it going!

"Am I even close to what it takes"
-> I think you're well past that point
Click to expand...

Thanks for your kind words! Didn't expect that.

I haven't watched tutorials/tips or that kind of stuff. But I do read a lot of different music scores. Whether it's a popular music transcription or some symphony orchestra. I imagine in my head how it sounds like and pick up ideas. I steal a lot and make them my own.

I just compose whatever comes to my mind. Sometimes I come up with ideas with a guitar, sometimes with the keyboard but usually just composing to staff with things that play in my head. Usually start with a few bars and start building from that and see where it leads.

Soundwise I'm usually a bit lost and I need a lot of practise in this, as you pointed out. It's a bit different to make rock/metal with drums, guitars and some synths than with a full orchestra.
 
Very nice!

I would highly recommend @BenBotkin's "Bringing Virtual Orchestra Music to Life" courses. They will help a ton with learning how to get the most from your sample libraries and programming them to sound their best.

https://store.fortecomposeracademy.com/advanced-virtual-orchestra-realism (this is for both volumes in a bundle, but the individual volumes are linked there too).

His MIDI study packs are also very great. For me, it was quite helpful to have "properly" programmed MIDI files of completed works to examine.
 
doctoremmet said:
Far beyond close! Your work displays a talent and musicianship that tick off all sorts of boxes. Stick to it!
Click to expand...
Thanks! As said, I really appreciate many people on this forum for from time to time I have no idea what they are talking about. Their knowledge of theory, manipulating MIDI and making excellent sounding stuff seems so above my head.

I'm keen to learn and I keep on making music every day. Even when it's a few bars only. Time is limited so you just gotta make the best out of it.

Just like playing the guitar. I usually don't have much more time than 10-15 minutes a day to play. But daily routines keep my skills at the level I am. So when I have more time and record something, it doesn't feel like starting playing guitar from the start again.
 
I think you have a lot of potential if this is what you are creating without much of a background in theory and orchestration.

I think it would be worthwhile to look into an orchestration course - your ideas are solid, but I think you lack some cohesion in the arranging, and some voicing errors that blur your main idea at times. But, you are not that far off and the ideas are there. There is a lot going on in your music, I think with some refinement it will help your ideas sing and work better together.

Then production - if you are wishing to turn this into something that will earn you money, learning to produce quality mockups in a DAW is essential these days, and focusing on introducing modern production techniques into your work. Understanding the current market of music in media and being on the front of trends is key to making a career out of this.

I would say with some focus on your weak links (theory/technique, production) you could definitely refine your work to a professional level in a year or two if you really put in daily practice towards it!
 
SyMTiK said:
I think you have a lot of potential if this is what you are creating without much of a background in theory and orchestration.

I think it would be worthwhile to look into an orchestration course - your ideas are solid, but I think you lack some cohesion in the arranging, and some voicing errors that blur your main idea at times. But, you are not that far off and the ideas are there. There is a lot going on in your music, I think with some refinement it will help your ideas sing and work better together.

Then production - if you are wishing to turn this into something that will earn you money, learning to produce quality mockups in a DAW is essential these days, and focusing on introducing modern production techniques into your work. Understanding the current market of music in media and being on the front of trends is key to making a career out of this.

I would say with some focus on your weak links (theory/technique, production) you could definitely refine your work to a professional level in a year or two if you really put in daily practice towards it!
Click to expand...

Well, I know some theory as you may see that I'm really familiar notation and so on. I'm not educated so my knowledge is limited and I cannot analyze scores completely and so on. I may say that I am more leveled than an average guitarist, though :D

For example I have no idea about some instruments, starting with not probably knowing what they are supposed to do so they might be all over the place.

But thanks for your feedback!
 
So I went and bought the NPPE for EWQL Hollywood Orchestra. Here's my first attempt. Still no idea what to with the instruments but at least there's dynamics in the song

1711897061837.png


 
Ad_Astra said:
So, I'm initially a metal guy. Been playing mainly guitar since early 90's, took piano lessons before that and still play a bit. Been composing and making music my whole life. Mostly melodic metal but really into instrumental guitar music in the style of Steve Vai, Joe Satriani etc. Nothing fancy in there.

For the last year I've been noodling with Dorico and doing some orchestral stuff. I do with NotePerformer and EWQL Hollywood Orchestra. Would be interested to do something more. I'm having my day job and income but always hoping for music being more than just a hobby.

I am self taught guitar player, not too sophisticated with music theory but I know basics. I mostly rely on my ears

The question is, for here on VI there seems to be a lot of pros around, am I even remotely close to what it takes?

Here's something I've done with orchestra. These are mainly scetches and and the purpose is the music (compose-wise), not the quality of sound nor realism. Don't know if I am violating rules for posting these here, so sorry for that.

A horror-ish ambient thing:


Some adventure ideas just piled together


Something again:


Something more:


-------------

And then some examples about that I've done before

Guitar instrumental #1


Guitar instrumental #2


And here's something I am proud, for getting my teens' favorite singer to sing one of my songs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_mHNfvSHBM

And here's a track from my previous band. We made two full length albums with 99% being my compositions
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jolqHCMIp4A
Click to expand...

You got this! I was like you arround 2016 and now I've been working in great projects! Your music chops are evident. You have good sense of music, harmony, melody, rhythm etc. The only thing that is lacking is a bit of programing/production for the orchestral mockups, and a bit of more delving into different "film scoring" genres. Nowadays, film scoring is a mix of orchestral/ethnic/electronics, in different levels. Would recommend checking some of the Bleeding Fingers cues on the Earth Tones, Space Tones or History Tones series and trying to getting that sound. Have fun and keep doing well!
 
A bit late to the party, but let me say you have great melodic instincts and a good sense of flow. In my experience, those are two things that every composer needs…. Almost anyone can learn music theory, but minus the two abilities above, it will be a struggle to write compelling music.

I agree with other responders - work on those mixing chops, and that will help, too. Also, since you read music already, you will find that any studies you do in form and or theory are likely going to make sense pretty quickly.

As a kid, I played by ear - I could just make music based on what I heard in my head. Once I learned to read music and studied theory and form, I suddenly had names and rationales for what I was doing, and my creativity took a leap.
 
brunocoliveira said:
You got this! I was like you arround 2016 and now I've been working in great projects! Your music chops are evident. You have good sense of music, harmony, melody, rhythm etc. The only thing that is lacking is a bit of programing/production for the orchestral mockups, and a bit of more delving into different "film scoring" genres. Nowadays, film scoring is a mix of orchestral/ethnic/electronics, in different levels. Would recommend checking some of the Bleeding Fingers cues on the Earth Tones, Space Tones or History Tones series and trying to getting that sound. Have fun and keep doing well!
Click to expand...

Thanks!

Trying to get better with programming and production. Takes some time though, I guess.
I'm the kind of old school that the sound quality doesn't matter if the music speaks for itself.

I'm still composing my guitar etc stuff with Guitar Pro and go with plain GM sounds. A blast from the past because when I started composing with PC, I used Midisoft Studio for Windows in the 90's and got used to GM sounds. I mean, if I get them to sound good like that, they only get better when adding real instruments and VST instruments and stuff.

Mixing and production has always been a PITA for me and I guess it ain't my cup of tea although I am always trying to do everything by myself.
 
I have a very similar background to yours, hard rock/metal guitar player trying to get into orchestral music just before turning 30.

I saw the biggest improvement since starting private lessons with a conservatory teacher. Having specific assignments with deadlines, based on the material we discussed in person has been very valuable.

I am the last person to offer advice on this, but I would try to simplify things for now. Focus on creating melody and harmony, then voice leading, etc. Going from a blank page into a full orchestra is challenging even for people with decades of experience.

By focusing on smaller steps you can better identify what needs improvement and in what way.

Midi programming and sample libraries are an entirely different topic and IMHO secondary compared to actual composition and orchestration. If your music sounds good out of a notation software, then it would be an appropriate time to worry about programming.
 
Last edited:
Bach Bach Bach Bach Bach...with a metal background I think you're in luck (you probably already like Bach). There is so much to learn from his music (part writing, harmony, voice leading, and counterpoint in particular) that can be applied pretty much universally.
 
Last edited:
Ad_Astra said:
Thanks!

Trying to get better with programming and production. Takes some time though, I guess.
I'm the kind of old school that the sound quality doesn't matter if the music speaks for itself.

I'm still composing my guitar etc stuff with Guitar Pro and go with plain GM sounds. A blast from the past because when I started composing with PC, I used Midisoft Studio for Windows in the 90's and got used to GM sounds. I mean, if I get them to sound good like that, they only get better when adding real instruments and VST instruments and stuff.

Mixing and production has always been a PITA for me and I guess it ain't my cup of tea although I am always trying to do everything by myself.
Click to expand...
I believe in beginning we all thought that it doesn't matter the sound quality, if the music is good you're fine. However, that's wha't you need to learn. Music and sound quality compliment each other and if you don't process the production skills, nobody will take your music seriously. As early you accept this and seek improvement, you will be doomed. The good news, all of these can be learned with practice and it will bring you a lot of great useful knowledge. Good luck!
 
Pertaining to the first four examples in post no. 1, the biggest first impression is that you have too many moving parts, and, hand in hand with that, the orchestration is all over the place. All this leads to textural confusion and an overall lack of focus. There are other musical problems, too, no less important, but that's what initially jumps out the most. To pull off that amount of musical stuff takes an advanced level technique that you can work towards, but for now it'd be better to scale it back some. In general there're a lot of beginners who work on full orchestra pieces before ever writing unaccompanied solo pieces, and pieces for smaller scale groups of instruments and textures, whether for real or for MIDI. This is ass backwards.

As to MIDI programming and audio mixing, sure, it will need improvement, but putting that in front of your composing technique is a notorious amateur hour waste of time. MIDI and mixing are only polish, not content. Your content needs to be placed front and center and developed, then refined, well before you break out the polish. You can't rely on programming and mixing to mask the underlying flaws of your musical content. I had one composition teacher that made us render everything within the cringe-inducing awfulness of General MIDI(!), read straight from the notation program, no mixing or anything else, just to leave us no place to hide. First things first; last things last.

Start easy and simple and do not overwhelm yourself with too much at once. You only need to know what you need to know, so it's better to dive deep rather than too wide for your intents and purposes.

If your serious about this, it will take some time, patience, commitment, plenty of smart work, and the ability to withhold the need for instant gratification.

A few introductory book suggestions:

For orchestration:

Essentials of Orchestration, by Black and Gerou
Not perfect, but no book is, and this is a solid intro to instrumentation, and efficiently presented.

Creative Orchestration, by McKay
Ignore the initial parts on instrumentation and study the rest of the book.

For a general music theory background:

Open Music Theory, version 2

Introduction – OPEN MUSIC THEORY

viva.pressbooks.pub viva.pressbooks.pub

Once you have a basis for line, voice-leading, harmony, texture, rhythm and form, you can search out a good teacher, or one who specializes in the "notes-aspect" of composition, and one who specializes in the orchestration side of it. But you'll save money by getting as much as you can out of a few good books first, and letting a teacher—if you can find a good one—move you forward from there.

When you're a little bit further along, message me and I can give you the basics of how to go about breaking down a score according to your purposes for studying it, and according to the nature of the score itself. This is the only way you can learn the real world "coming together" of the various elements of composition, and the different types of advanced techniques developed and refined by all of those rare men of the past, the master composers of Western Civilization.

Good luck moving forward.
__________
 
I'm honestly not sure what your definition of "making it" actually is, so your question is kinda difficult to answer.

Are you asking if you have what it takes to be a big time professional composer? If so, after listening to the pieces you posted, I would say no, not right now. You have a really long way to go. @Cletus McBone pretty much summed a lot of it up.

To make things even more difficult, it's not just about your chops. Some of the best composers I know have never landed a single major gig.

But do you have the potential to do so? Sure. Anyone does (that is if AI doesn't take over the industry within the next 5 to 10 years, especially for smaller gigs: TV shows, commercials, trailers, etc.). Mega corporations are investing literally millions of dollars into AI, and it's not just for shits and giggles.

And unfortunately, long gone are the days of big time Hollywood composers. Unless you were grandfathered in, or somehow know the right people, I just don't see it happening for 99.9% of aspiring composers.

As a fellow guitarist, I can say your playing is pretty good, and you have good technique, but like you said, nothing fancy, and definitely not enough to grab anyone's attention. It's getting harder and harder as a guitarist to do anything that grabs people's attention, as much as I hate to say that, but the bar has just been raised so high that you really have to be doing things that are fresh, and unprecedented. It sucks, and I don't say this stuff to be a dick. It's just the way things are, and the music industry is so oversaturated that it's hard to get people to even listen to your music, and even "professional composers" have had to turn to social media in hopes of becoming a big time influencer. That's a sad commentary in of itself, but it's just the way things have gone.

I think Ola Englund does a pretty good job summing up some of these things in this video...



My advice? Pursue music because you love it, not because you're trying to "make it", and in the meantime your skills might improve to the point where you're competing with the best of the best, which is totally feasible if you stick with it.

Btw, I used to compose music for haunted attractions, but those gigs are pretty much gone thanks to things like streaming services or stock music. It's way cheaper for haunt owners to just stream whatever, than it is to pay an actual composer for custom music, but I still compose this music, because I enjoy it (and i still do make money from it), just like how I keep playing guitar. But for me it's not about the money, or, "making it". It's about the love and passion for it.

If your definition of "making it" is to just try and make some money off your music, then sure. People do that all the time, and it doesn't require much.

So it really just depends on what you mean by, "making it".

Either way, I genuinely wish you the very best of luck with whatever your definition of, "making it" actually is. 👍
 
Last edited:
Thanks for your replies @Cletus McBone and @xguitaristx !

Yeah, once in a while I have no idea what I am doing in my music but that's the thrill. There's a lot of things going on and some of it is unorthodox and some of it is usual. I've never liked to make usual things. No matter what kind of music I make. If I make just regular stuff, I get bored really easily.

It's quite tricky nowadays. If you make simple things you're not bringing anything fresh into it. If you differ from "regulations" you should stick to what's ought to be accepted, you know what I mean?

I mean, once we had a thrash metal band and we sang in my own language (finnish). I made the songs and stoke 99% of the riffs from big bands like Megadeth, Metallica, Slayer and so on. Made a demo EP and in short time got a few 100k listens and got a recording deal etc. This was in 2006, I guess. Ended up the band for I just hated doing that kind of "simple" stuff. And by simple I mean age old songs structures and ideas. Perhaps that's what people wanted to hear though.

When we got in our powermetal band I had really different style. Instead of the basic ABABCBB structures I made really different ones. Maybe the songs had different riffs in every verse. Maybe odd tempo, meter or key changes. Not like Dream Theater though, but things that made me interested in playing the song without getting bored.

What I meant with "making it" was to compose stuff for TV or so on. I know the realities. I have my job and income, family and so on. So this is just a hobby but would be nice to get something out of it some day. I do have had a chance though, for for a time I made official heavy metal karaoke backings for a company and have made a few backings for some national celebrities (they had a song but I rearranged, added some parts of my own, recomposed some melody lines etc).

Here's one of those songs that I had no idea what was to become when I started it. Maybe there's some explanation though. People may not be able to dance to it but kept me focused when recording it. Meter-wise. Soloing over 13/16 was interesting.

 
Ad_Astra said:
Thanks for your replies @Cletus McBone and @xguitaristx !

Yeah, once in a while I have no idea what I am doing in my music but that's the thrill. There's a lot of things going on and some of it is unorthodox and some of it is usual. I've never liked to make usual things. No matter what kind of music I make. If I make just regular stuff, I get bored really easily.

It's quite tricky nowadays. If you make simple things you're not bringing anything fresh into it. If you differ from "regulations" you should stick to what's ought to be accepted, you know what I mean?

I mean, once we had a thrash metal band and we sang in my own language (finnish). I made the songs and stoke 99% of the riffs from big bands like Megadeth, Metallica, Slayer and so on. Made a demo EP and in short time got a few 100k listens and got a recording deal etc. This was in 2006, I guess. Ended up the band for I just hated doing that kind of "simple" stuff. And by simple I mean age old songs structures and ideas. Perhaps that's what people wanted to hear though.

When we got in our powermetal band I had really different style. Instead of the basic ABABCBB structures I made really different ones. Maybe the songs had different riffs in every verse. Maybe odd tempo, meter or key changes. Not like Dream Theater though, but things that made me interested in playing the song without getting bored.

What I meant with "making it" was to compose stuff for TV or so on. I know the realities. I have my job and income, family and so on. So this is just a hobby but would be nice to get something out of it some day. I do have had a chance though, for for a time I made official heavy metal karaoke backings for a company and have made a few backings for some national celebrities (they had a song but I rearranged, added some parts of my own, recomposed some melody lines etc).

Here's one of those songs that I had no idea what was to become when I started it. Maybe there's some explanation though. People may not be able to dance to it but kept me focused when recording it. Meter-wise. Soloing over 13/16 was interesting.

Click to expand...

I hear ya. It is tricky. But once again, you have solid guitar playing technique and chops, so definitely give yourself a lot of credit for the amount of hard work and dedication you put in to cultivating your craft. Clearly, you possess the discipline in order to maintain those skills, because guitar isn't like learning how to ride a bike (as I'm sure you know). You really do have to practice every day. I've been playing for over 20 years, and the days (or weeks) where I can't practice, it definitely shows! So at least give yourself credit for being able to stick with that, and if you can apply that same type of discipline to learning orchestration, I have a feeling that you'll advance very fast!

Also, none of us have a crystal ball, and AI has not quite caught up to music yet, so we don't know what the future brings when it comes to that. There still could be plenty of time for you to learn proper compositin/orchestration, meet the right people in the biz, and land TV gigs.

If your goal is to compose for TV, then don't let anything hold you back. Anything is possible, so definitely keep going!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top Bottom