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About Update of Noteperformer 4 ?

I don't own the Studio Orchestra, but I do own SSO, and I have been quite looking forward to the NPPE version of it. A big part (though not all) of the reason is actually *because* SSO is so persnickety to program. There are timing, volume, and cross-fade inconsistencies everywhere. It's generally possible to get around them with manual tweaking of CC curves but since each instrument responds slightly differently, this is quite a chore. I am eagerly awaiting a NPPE version, b/c that will have already done the hard work of of smoothing over these inconsistencies, thus giving me the ability to use my SSO libraries but without having to pay the cost of programming them myself. They sound too nice to sit neglected on my drives but that is kinda where I am currently at with SSO.

So I guess my own vote (for whatever it is worth) would be in favor of :

* ignoring the Performance Legatos in the Woodwinds and Brass and using the Long articulations instead to fake legatos (I've found myself doing just this on more than one occasion b/c it's often easier to get a "convincing" line out of the longs than to spend an eternity on massaging the timing using the perf legatos).

* using the legacy legatos for Strings

Thank you for soliciting feedback on this @Wallander. Hoping others chime in as well!
 
This is a bummer. SSO has been lying fallow on my hard drive for a long time, and I had really hoped to finally employ it. I guess I would like to see it released just to maybe make use of some of it.

@Wallander I know that problems with Sine remain from a memory standpoint, but are the Berlin Mains even on the table?
 
blaggins said:
I don't own the Studio Orchestra, but I do own SSO, and I have been quite looking forward to the NPPE version of it. A big part (though not all) of the reason is actually *because* SSO is so persnickety to program. There are timing, volume, and cross-fade inconsistencies everywhere. It's generally possible to get around them with manual tweaking of CC curves but since each instrument responds slightly differently, this is quite a chore. I am eagerly awaiting a NPPE version, b/c that will have already done the hard work of of smoothing over these inconsistencies, thus giving me the ability to use my SSO libraries but without having to pay the cost of programming them myself. They sound too nice to sit neglected on my drives but that is kinda where I am currently at with SSO.

So I guess my own vote (for whatever it is worth) would be in favor of :

* ignoring the Performance Legatos in the Woodwinds and Brass and using the Long articulations instead to fake legatos (I've found myself doing just this on more than one occasion b/c it's often easier to get a "convincing" line out of the longs than to spend an eternity on massaging the timing using the perf legatos).

* using the legacy legatos for Strings

Thank you for soliciting feedback on this @Wallander. Hoping others chime in as well!
Click to expand...
Yeah, it was pretty much the same with BBCSO with me. I got tired of programming it but NPPE solved a ton of its usability issues for me. And I think you're right if the line is not too exposed or lyrical a simple sustain can work perfectly well for production purposes.

@Wallander, I think that with a proper disclaimer (like the ones for BBCSO PRO warning it might crash, etc), you should go that route and forget about the performance legatos. Especially if you're able to tackle other inconsistencies in the library (like with BBCSO) and can offer value in that way as well.
 
Ivan Duch said:
Yeah, it was pretty much the same with BBCSO with me. I got tired of programming it but NPPE solved a ton of its usability issues for me. And I think you're right if the line is not too exposed or lyrical a simple sustain can work perfectly well for production purposes.

@Wallander, I think that with a proper disclaimer (like the ones for BBCSO PRO warning it might crash, etc), you should go that route and forget about the performance legatos. Especially if you're able to tackle other inconsistencies in the library (like with BBCSO) and can offer value in that way as well.
Click to expand...
Totally agree with!!
 
Me too, or an alternative could be to give the option to load the legato patches with a disclaimer (ie 2 copies of each instrument or something, call it experimental mode maybe with the PL patches), unless it completely breaks the playback of course until some sort of potential solution is found.

I realised I haven't updated SSO so I still have all the old legato patches hence my earlier confusion with the deleted posts..
 
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Jett Hitt said:
This is a bummer. SSO has been lying fallow on my hard drive for a long time, and I had really hoped to finally employ it. I guess I would like to see it released just to maybe make use of some of it.

@Wallander I know that problems with Sine remain from a memory standpoint, but are the Berlin Mains even on the table?
Click to expand...
We'd love to support the full Berlin Series and other OT libraries, but it's impossible to do it unless memory is shared between instances (or not preloaded at all). Otherwise, we could be looking at 50 GB of RAM for a single instrument.
 
Wallander said:
We'd love to support the full Berlin Series and other OT libraries, but it's impossible to do it unless memory is shared between instances (or not preloaded at all). Otherwise, we could be looking at 50 GB of RAM for a single instrument.
Click to expand...
@OrchestralTools needs to address this. It might open up a whole new group of customers if they would. Dorico, Sibelius. and Finale have tons of users who would be potential customers.
 
@Wallander,

Looks like there's an update coming soon for the Spitfire Player I think it was released with Spitfire Colossus but not sure. I hope it reaches BBCSO since it was announced for Abbey Road One libraries as well.

Eco-Load feature​

Eco-Load allows the selected technique(s) to be loaded to RAM, offloading all other techniques to save on system resources.
Click to expand...
If it's released for BBCSO you think it could be used within the NPPE architecture?
 
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Also, I think I already asked you, but would it be possible to add multiple tonguing, tenutos and marcatos from BBCSO ? The tenutos and marcatos in particular are useful for brass and woodwinds because they have round robins and are super useful in many situations.

Maybe you can leave the tenutos and marcatos accessible through some user-defined articulation or one of yours (I read recently in Dorico's forum that it might be possible for you to distribute Noteperformer with custom playing techniques). Such thing could allow for other articulations like flautando, sfz longs, etc.

Right now I use an extra staff for accessing those articulations through VEP but I think they're useful. Probably hard for Noteperformer to access them smartly by itself but useful for users to define when they want them through markings.

I think any sustain with round robin can help a lot with realism, OPUS has articulations with them as well.

Also, the Marcato Attack + Spiccato can be a good option for marcato sustains instead of the normal sustain + spiccato for strings. Because the normal sustain has a swell to it with sounds a bit strange after the spiccato attack.
 
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Ivan Duch said:
Also, I think I already asked you, but would it be possible to add multiple tonguing, tenutos and marcatos from BBCSO ? The tenutos and marcatos in particular are useful for brass and woodwinds because they have round robins and are super useful in many situations.

Maybe you can leave the tenutos and marcatos accessible through some user-defined articulation or one of yours (I read recently in Dorico's forum that it might be possible for you to distribute Noteperformer with custom playing techniques).

Right now I use an extra staff for accessing those articulations through VEP but I think they're useful. Probably hard for Noteperformer to access them smartly by itself but useful for users to define when they want them through markings.

I think any sustain with round robin can help a lot with realism, OPUS has articulations with them as well.

Also, the Marcato Attack + Spiccato can be a good option for marcato sustains instead of the normal sustain + spiccato for strings. Because the normal sustain has a swell to it with sounds a bit strange after the spiccato attack.
Click to expand...
We didn't use Tenuto and Marcato because they're too limited in scope to fit into a general musical context. Marcato is typically single-layered, not always looped, and can't often transition into legato. Tenuto is typically a one-shot sample around 1 second long and without note release.

That said, I don't rule out making them available as custom articulations through a dedicated MIDI CC. That's how portamento is implemented. Legato is interpreted as portamento after sending value 1 to CC 111. Here's a portamento sound example:

www.dropbox.com

Screen Recording 2023-09-23 at 15.32.40.mov

Shared with Dropbox
www.dropbox.com www.dropbox.com
 
Ivan Duch said:
@Wallander,

Looks like there's an update coming soon for the Spitfire Player I think it was released with Spitfire Colossus but not sure. I hope it reaches BBCSO since it was announced for Abbey Road One libraries as well.


If it's released for BBCSO you think it could be used within the NPPE architecture?
Click to expand...
Since Eco-Load seems a global setting, I assume it will apply equally to NPPE as a DAW.

From the plug-in's perspective, NPPE just opens what looks like a DAW project.

That said, I don't know how it works in practice, whether it offloads articulations, microphones, or both.
 
Wallander said:
We didn't use Tenuto and Marcato because they're too limited in scope to fit into a general musical context. Marcato is typically single-layered, not always looped, and can't often transition into legato. Tenuto is typically a one-shot sample around 1 second long and without note release.

That said, I don't rule out making them available as custom articulations through a dedicated MIDI CC. That's how portamento is implemented. Legato is interpreted as portamento after sending value 1 to CC 111. Here's a portamento sound example:

www.dropbox.com

Screen Recording 2023-09-23 at 15.32.40.mov

Shared with Dropbox
www.dropbox.com www.dropbox.com
Click to expand...
Thank you for answering.

Yes, the way you're handling the portamentos is great, that way one can create the required articulations within Dorico (not sure if it's possible in Sibelius in such a way).

I guess these would be tools for users who are fine with tweaking and creating their own expression maps within the notation app (normally people used to DAWs). The benefit to having Noteperformer able to access these articulations is that the user doesn't need to have extra staves for the instrument to access the articulations nor have to load the Spitfire Player twice (or Kontakt, Synchron, or whatever), saving on resources.

So, if you feel like adding CCs + certain values is an easy thing for you to do, it'd be amazing.

I use the BBCSO tenutos and marcatos for certain phrases or repeated patterns like chords being played in quarter notes. On my end the tenutos seem to have a release, though. And the marcatos for the woodwinds, brass and solo strings have round robins and more than one dynamic layer.
 
Wallander said:
We didn't use Tenuto and Marcato because they're too limited in scope to fit into a general musical context. Marcato is typically single-layered, not always looped, and can't often transition into legato. Tenuto is typically a one-shot sample around 1 second long and without note release.

That said, I don't rule out making them available as custom articulations through a dedicated MIDI CC. That's how portamento is implemented. Legato is interpreted as portamento after sending value 1 to CC 111. Here's a portamento sound example:

www.dropbox.com

Screen Recording 2023-09-23 at 15.32.40.mov

Shared with Dropbox
www.dropbox.com www.dropbox.com
Click to expand...

Wallander said:
We didn't use Tenuto and Marcato because they're too limited in scope to fit into a general musical context. Marcato is typically single-layered, not always looped, and can't often transition into legato. Tenuto is typically a one-shot sample around 1 second long and without note release.

That said, I don't rule out making them available as custom articulations through a dedicated MIDI CC. That's how portamento is implemented. Legato is interpreted as portamento after sending value 1 to CC 111. Here's a portamento sound example:

www.dropbox.com

Screen Recording 2023-09-23 at 15.32.40.mov

Shared with Dropbox
www.dropbox.com www.dropbox.com
Click to expand...
It seems the portamento in 137 causes timing issues with the 8ths that follow, compared to the opening measure of the excerpt.
 
So a quick follow up. I installed NP4 and loaded it in Dorico. It creates all the channel strips now for every instrument, but some reason it still only sends to one. So for full romantic orchestra, it all sends to the timpani strip, or if I just load Violins 1 and 2, everything goes through the Violins 1 channel, even though the tracks are assigned to separate channels.
 
VSTHero said:
So a quick follow up. I installed NP4 and loaded it in Dorico. It creates all the channel strips now for every instrument, but some reason it still only sends to one. So for full romantic orchestra, it all sends to the timpani strip, or if I just load Violins 1 and 2, everything goes through the Violins 1 channel, even though the tracks are assigned to separate channels.
Click to expand...
NPPE always goes to the first NotePerformer instance. Disregard the audio output naming in Dorico.

The output port is a setting in the advanced settings.

About Update of Noteperformer 4 ?
 
Wallander said:
I want to ask for a reality check.
Click to expand...

Few comments about the spitfire studio string. In general, it sounds good for a composition tool but as much as for a finished mix; Personally, I use NP4 with the original sounds and work everything later in a DAW.

Bar 1-20, Trems are fine, the fast passages also passable. Cbass and cello a bit muddy (I tried the tree mic and sounds clearer)

Bar 21-37, the legato not great, kind of bumpy start.

bar 38 Legato phrases in slow tempo sound a bit better but not ideal

Bars 62-64 the shorts in Dbass and cello muddy

66-69 viola phrase sounds good, the sound however fits a lower dynamic (p or mp)

70-72 legato in Vln 1&2 is also nice.

73-84, high trem is ok of course, the cello part not clear also cello’s tenor clef in low notes is not very practical! (I assume is the original score)

104-106, the dotted eighth with the 16th sounds surprisingly quite good(!) normally these figures are not easy.

127-142 the legato transition is not the greatest, kind of delay I hear. Same with 209-218 (the sord. passage)

219 - - -the short phrases with the accented first note is nice.
 
Page Lyn Turner said:
Few comments about the spitfire studio string. In general, it sounds good for a composition tool but as much as for a finished mix; Personally, I use NP4 with the original sounds and work everything later in a DAW.

Bar 1-20, Trems are fine, the fast passages also passable. Cbass and cello a bit muddy (I tried the tree mic and sounds clearer)

Bar 21-37, the legato not great, kind of bumpy start.

bar 38 Legato phrases in slow tempo sound a bit better but not ideal

Bars 62-64 the shorts in Dbass and cello muddy

66-69 viola phrase sounds good, the sound however fits a lower dynamic (p or mp)

70-72 legato in Vln 1&2 is also nice.

73-84, high trem is ok of course, the cello part not clear also cello’s tenor clef in low notes is not very practical! (I assume is the original score)

104-106, the dotted eighth with the 16th sounds surprisingly quite good(!) normally these figures are not easy.

127-142 the legato transition is not the greatest, kind of delay I hear. Same with 209-218 (the sord. passage)

219 - - -the short phrases with the accented first note is nice.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the detailed feedback! We're unlikely to release the Studio Series engine in this state. I think there's potential for something much better here.

Also, I'm unsure about the problem being intentional. We need to run this by Spitfire. SSO Violins 2 works perfectly (like BBCSO), while SSO Violins 1 has the timing strangeness I described. It doesn't seem right.

The shorts in the Studio Series do work very nicely. Regarding the balance e.g. cello part in 73-84, NotePerformer is designed to play it neutrally, and the cello is notated at a lower dynamic than the background (cello is f, the background is f + accent). this is why the melody doesn't stand out. Of course, in the full score, the melody is doubled by many other voices.
 
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