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Why do so many people dislike Spitfire Studio Orchestra while at the same time so many people love BHCT?

Well, yes and no. I don’t much like the room sound on it’s own, and you’ll never get the kind of embodied sonority the you get with an AIR Lyndhurst library, but there are a lot of early reflections in SStS (very differnt from silent stage) which means that it takes external reverb quite well. For instance, I think you can hear that there’s quite gorgeous timbres captured in SStS in something like this:



Hi @ism ,

The demo track sounds very nice. Thanks for sharing.

You used a good quality reverb that gave the stings the right ambience, and nice reverb tails.

But if you used SStStrings with a much less reverb, or one that has much shorter reverb tail, they won't sound that good, I think if the main goal is to get the sound of a small string section with an intimate detailed sound, they won't pull it through that well. For that type of sound, strings sampled in a nice sounding medium sized hall, with a selection of mics, including a close mono, and even stereo mics would be the way to get the strings to sound intimate, close, and with beautiful timbre. i.e. Berlin Strings with lots of close mic, and a bit of tree, and a dash or reverb would sound great.

Cheers,
Muziksculp
 
(...) For instance, I think you can hear that there’s quite gorgeous timbres captured in SStS in something like this:



Ism,

There are at least four or five libraries in Spitfire’s catalog — not to mention the many libraries from other developers — that can do that kind of thing A LOT better. It’s not for me to say of course what other people ought to be doing with their libraries, but I just don’t get why you would want to buy a library of a studio orchestra, recorded in a smallish space, only to then try to turn it into a spacious, washy, large-scale kind of thing. That’s fake double up, if you ask me.

I strongly disagree with you, you see, that because of its baked-in early reflections, the Spitfire Studio Series ‘takes to an external reverb quite well’. I believe, in fact, that the exact opposite is true, because those early reflections, which are indeed a distinct part of the sampled sound, suggest confinement (as early reflections invariably do). Adding a hall reverb to these samples creates a spatial conflict between, on the one hand, the suggestion of confinement as imprinted in the samples and, on the other hand, the suggestion of large-scale spaciousness that comes from the reverb. And that simply doesn’t sound right to my ears.
(That conflict is least distracting with the strings, and in certain carefully judged situations, you can more or less work around it with several of the woods as well, but it becomes an unsolvable problem with the brass. You can hear all this in the official demo’s. And also in MikeT’s “Avenger” rendition, which, while well done, sounds both big and boxy at the same time.)

When the Studio Series was originally announced, I got quite excited actually. Finally, I thought, we would have an orchestral library, built with Spitfire’s incomparable experience and peerless craftsmanship, with which to render small-to-medium-sized orchestral music in not too big and not too wet a space. Something I’ve been dreaming of for, well, over 20 years. See, my favourite orchestral sound is not the big, lush, glossy, ultra-wide, pristine sound that, for example, the combination Williams-Murphy gives us, no, I prefer something on a more modest scale: an expanded chamber group in a mid-size recording studio. Or, as Wiliford (whose earlier post I agree with entirely) put it: the smaller, drier sound you often used to hear in scoring for television. I really like that.

To give you an idea, here’s https://users.telenet.be/re-peat/TheMenu.mp3 (<b><u>an excellent example of the sound I’m talking about</u></b>). That’s the cue “The Menu”, from the first “Jaws” (a soundtrack which, like a lot of Williams’ earlier work, sounds very much like an orchestral tv-score of its day). The sound in that example — both of the orchestra and of the space — is what I hoped and expected the Studio Series would allow me to emulate (insofar as samples are capable of such a thing, of course). And on paper it does. Which is why I bought the Pro version of the three volumes without thinking twice. After all, this is Spitfire we’re talking about, right?

Sadly, a number of things went wrong during the production of the Studio Series, in my opinion. I’ve said on a few occasions that, to my ears, it sounds as if Spitfire sent out their B-team to do the job, but apparently, that wasn’t the case. Still, I don’t think the sound engineering is up to Spitfire-scratch (also illustrated in the official demo’s), far from it even, I further believe that they sacrificed several essential articulations in favour of non-essential ones (the shorts department is frustratingly under-populated), moreover the concept of stacking smaller sections to suggest bigger ones also strikes me as a surprisingly un-Spitfire-ishly approach, and the programming is annoyingly slap-dash in places as well. Try, for example, to forge a coherent-sounding, musically expressive phrase combining various articulations, with any of the solo instruments, and you’re in for an extremely harrowing time with little if any outlook on a truly good result.

My initial grave desillusionment with the library has abated a little, but I still think it’s a very weak set. (Not just in the subjective light of my personal expectations, but also in the more objective light of what the product is claimed and sold as to be.) Time and again, I’ve tried to make it work, but apart from the occasional satisfying string part (and a single use of the bassclarinet in a non-orchestral setting), I’ve always given up and turned away pretty disappointed to look for a solution elsewhere. So far, I haven’t heard anyone else either do anything with it that I find enjoyably convincing, sonically or musically.
(And again: the idea of somehow circumnavigating the baked-in studio ambience of this library and make it appear as if the included instruments and sections were captured in a sizeable hall, simply doesn’t make any sense to me at all. If I’d want that, I’d use a different library. If you want the sound of a church organ, you don’t start with a Farfisa either.)

Were one, on a particularly intrepid day, to try and mock-up “The Menu” with the Studio Series, you would barely get past the opening horn staccato’s, and then you would already be stuck as there is simply no content available in the library to progress successfully. That, I find, shouldn’t be the case with a so-called professional studio orchestra library from one of the top developers.
I’m not saying (as, during the first days of my disappointment, I used to say) that this library is completely without value or potential, but I do firmly believe it isn’t fully capable of being what its developer describes it to be, and I’m also of the opinion that, strictly technically speaking, it falls well below the standard set by Spitfire’s best work.

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(And again: the idea of somehow circumnavigating the baked-in studio ambience of this library and make it appear as if the included instruments and sections were captured in a sizeable hall, simply doesn’t make any sense to me at all. If I’d want that, I’d use a different library. If you want the sound of a church organ, you don’t start with a Farfisa either.)

While I agree in general with your statement (ala "if you want a hall sound, use something that was recorded there"), not everyone can afford several libraries that were recorded in different rooms. So if you can only afford one library in this price range, it makes sense if you want it to be versatile (and therefore rather dry).

Regarding the "boxy" sound: I think it depends on the Reverbs that you are using and how much time you want to invest in it. I made some tests recently, using Spitfire’s Epic Strings (which comes from the old Albion 1, afaik) as a reference. In the end, I had at least some of the Strings Articulations from Studio Strings matching the Hall Sound (but still, they retained their own character). But I needed to play around a lot with Mic Positons, EQ and different Reverbs (some of them just didn't deliver a convincing result). And probably it would be much harder with the Brass (I didn't really try that yet). Of course the question is, if one wants to invest so much time in something like that (but once found, you can of course save your presets).
 
(...) versatile (and therefore rather dry) (...)

See, that’s precisely where I think people are, or have been led, a little astray. The persistent idea that the Studio Series (especially the core version) is a dry library, is, in my opinion, really quite wrong and misleading. To my ears, it is nowhere near dry enough to be ‘spatially versatile’. (I find BML Sable, or BBCSO, actually a lot more versatile in this respect than the Studio Series.)

This very subject came up earlier this year, when I wrote:

“The Studio Series, particularly the core version, is NOT a dry library. It is in fact pretty wet. It’s not because the room it was recorded in doesn’t generate a lush 3 sec. reverb, that it is a dry library. Dry or wet has got nothing to do with the kind of reverb or its length, it refers to the balance between the direct source sound and the presence of the room’s response. The more that balance favours the room (even if that room generates only a 0,5 sec. response), the wetter a library, and the Tree recordings with which the core version of the Studio Series is assembled, definitely have plenty of room in them. Wet, alors.

You can hear the consequences of that baked-in wetness quite well [in the video that was posted]: even if you add a longish reverb to these samples, they still have that characteristic confined sound of samples recorded in a smaller space. There’s no getting rid of that.

In my opinion/experience, the Studio Strings (and the two other libraries that make up the Studio Series) are at their singular best either without any additional reverb or, if you really must, with a tasteful bit of nice chamber reverb. But as soon as you cross into ‘hall’-territory with the core versions of these libraries, the mismatch between the small baked-in space of the samples, on the one hand, and the suggestion of largeness from the added reverb, on the other, becomes rather off-putting, I find.”

_
 
re-peat, have you found any libraries that meet the "70's tv" esthetic?

I have had some luck with LASS 2.5/LS with Spitfire's LCO in certain cases. Think Lalo Schifrin's Dirty Harry score.
 
See, that’s precisely where I think people are, or have been led, a little astray. The persistent idea that the Studio Series (especially the core version) is a dry library, is, in my opinion, really quite wrong and misleading. To my ears, it is nowhere near dry enough to be ‘spatially versatile’. (I find BML Sable, or BBCSO, actually a lot more versatile in this respect than the Studio Series.)

This very subject came up earlier this year, when I wrote:

“The Studio Series, particularly the core version, is NOT a dry library. It is in fact pretty wet. It’s not because the room it was recorded in doesn’t generate a lush 3 sec. reverb, that it is a dry library. Dry or wet has got nothing to do with the kind of reverb or its length, it refers to the balance between the direct source sound and the presence of the room’s response. The more that balance favours the room (even if that room generates only a 0,5 sec. response), the wetter a library, and the Tree recordings with which the core version of the Studio Series is assembled, definitely have plenty of room in them. Wet, alors.

You can hear the consequences of that baked-in wetness quite well [in the video that was posted]: even if you add a longish reverb to these samples, they still have that characteristic confined sound of samples recorded in a smaller space. There’s no getting rid of that.

In my opinion/experience, the Studio Strings (and the two other libraries that make up the Studio Series) are at their singular best either without any additional reverb or, if you really must, with a tasteful bit of nice chamber reverb. But as soon as you cross into ‘hall’-territory with the core versions of these libraries, the mismatch between the small baked-in space of the samples, on the one hand, and the suggestion of largeness from the added reverb, on the other, becomes rather off-putting, I find.”

_
Yep, I agree. I eventually brought it and after experimenting came to the same conclusion: It’s best as it’s own thing with a smidge of reverb added.

Possibly why it doesn’t get the forum love: It’s neither the best for Hollywood or trailer and is difficult to put in a box. I use it for all sorts of things, rarely a straight up orchestra.

I’ll concur with others on the brass though. It’s the one that “got away.”
 
I'vs only ever needed to use the built-in verb. The idea of using SStO as the orchestra and drenched in concert hall verbs is very unappealing.
 
If you truly are in to a specific kind of sound and have a limited budget, of course it makes sense to buy a library that suits it and buy a second much less expensive one that sounds very different as an alternative when you need it.

if you are not and simply want versatility, a medium sized, in terms of number of players, dry library is just going to be the most versatile choice. Otherwise, you are frequently fitting the square peg into the round hole, as Piet pretty much said. (But bear in mind, he has very specific standards and what would sound fine to many simply doesn’t to him. That’s not a criticism, just IMO, factually accurate.)

I am fortunate to have several as well as sections because I either worked with the company or reviewed them. But if I was starting from scratch, because I am a musical chameleon, I would definitely be thinking in those terms.
 
And also in MikeT’s “Avenger” rendition, which, while well done, sounds both big and boxy at the same time.)

I do agree. Studio Orchestra exists in a strange middle ground, which isn't without its virtues, but is largely unrelated to what I initially hoped it was going to be (and tried to use it as for some time).
 
I was very excited about the studio orchestra, and bought all 3 (professional edition) thinking it would be so cool to have a tight, dare I say vintage sounding studio orchestra.

The first thing I did was voicing a simple triad with the solo horn patch. The lowest note stuck out like a soar thumb - it was louder, and considerably longer than upper two. Even if this was the staccatissimo patch. I just gave up after a short while!

This sums up the studio series for me; the quality control was so horrible that there are major inconsistencies - not just between instruments, not just between articulations, but even between the notes in one single articulation.

Given how many excellent libraries Spitfire has put out over the years, I think they just dropped the ball on this one. There is nothing “professional” about this library.

Bernard Herrmann is a really cool library, and doesn’t have these problems.
 
The first thing I did was voicing a simple triad with the solo horn patch.
One reason I got BHCT was that the horn and trombone sections sounded so good. I was expecting a similar sound and more flexibility with SStB. When I played the Horn Solo 1 patch it broke my heart. The worst patch of the collection and maybe the worst Solo Horn I’ve ever heard. Horn Solo 2 was better, and Spitfire improved some things with updates.

All sample libraries have their good points and some not so good, but I was a bit burned by that. I’ve been reluctant to purchase anything from them for a while. It wasn’t a conscious decision. I started with SCS, LCOS, and BHCT which are all fabulous! I actually like the boxy studio sound of SStO, but something happened with the sampling or programming (in some of the brass, mainly).

Since then I’ve been steadily building my template with brass from other vendors, but still wait for a close, no compromises studio library sound that will impress me. Abbey Road or whatever OT is coming up with could be the key.
 
When I played the Horn Solo 1 patch it broke my heart. The worst patch of the collection and maybe the worst Solo Horn I’ve ever heard.
So maybe I hit the worst part of the library right from the get go.

On the other hand, it shouldn’t be necessary to use an auxiliary library (Bernard Herrmann) for something simple as a horn triad. Also, I can’t for my life understand why Spitfire can’t be more generous with the short notes. Just spiccato doesn’t quite cut it, and I can’t for my life understand why they don’t get it right from the start. I mean, short articulations are cheap to record compared to legato patches. Having one short note doesn’t qualify for a “professional” tag.

Abbey Road One is truly excellent and one of my favorites this year, but I’m still holding my breath hoping they will record a useable set of short notes to go with it.
 
Hi Peat,


There are at least four or five libraries in Spitfire’s catalog — not to mention the many libraries from other developers — that can do that kind of thing A LOT better

Well, sure ... except, what is it that I'm trying to do here that they can do better?

If I was writing, for instance, a particular lyrical piece I'm working on, then even if I was playing exactly the same notes as the above sketch, SCS would undoubtedly be a lot better. If I was looking for drippingly high-romantic, there's no question that CSS would be a better choice.

But I wasn't. And I find that SStS has a very lovely combination of texure and ... I'm never quite sure how to describe it, "crunchiness" maybe? There's a piece I'm working on at the moment that's quite close to my heat that really needs the true sense of spatiality and embodiment or whatever it is that you get in the full AIR Lynduhurst libraries ... and I'll admit that I've banged my head into a few walls before realizing that SStS just isn't going to deliver this.

In fact I actually quite like your description here.



I strongly disagree with you, you see, that because of its baked-in early reflections, the Spitfire Studio Series ‘takes to an external reverb quite well’. I believe, in fact, that the exact opposite is true, because those early reflections, which are indeed a distinct part of the sampled sound, suggest confinement (as early reflections invariably do). Adding a hall reverb to these samples creates a spatial conflict between, on the one hand, the suggestion of confinement as imprinted in the samples and, on the other hand, the suggestion of large-scale spaciousness that comes from the reverb. And that simply doesn’t sound right to my ears.
(That conflict is least distracting with the strings, and in certain carefully judged situations, you can more or less work around it with several of the woods as well, but it becomes an unsolvable problem with the brass. You can hear all this in the official demo’s. And also in MikeT’s “Avenger” rendition, which, while well done, sounds both big and boxy at the same time.)


It's quite helpful.

But there's another aesthetic I'm going for here that SStS just somehow really works for - for some thing, typically less lyrical, less introspective, more narrative pieces. Maybe SCS, with lots of close mic would work for this aesthetic also, but ... not sure ... but I really find the SStS is both very often a perfectly adequate $150 "SCS lite", but beyond that has it's own aesthetic in it's right.


In any event i've written on (what I see as) the aesthetic merits of the SStS in it's own right on various thread, like these:





So yes, I quite like the effect of the crunchiness arising from the dryness mixed with the disembodied (ie fake) spatiality that comes from the large reverb. Clearly the shimmering of those early reflections aren't entirely real, you'd never mistake this for something recored in the main hall at AIR.

But I really like them, as I said, for a particularly type of, typically more narrative, and less lyrical pieces, with a particular quality of intensity that's invokes a multivalence of beautiful texture meets crunchiness of the SStS sound, and particular way that legato has a certain flowing intensity. It's certainly not technically superior to SCS or CSS in depth of sampling or sophistication of scripting. But I find if I let SStS be SStS, it can really be very unique and beautiful.

Incidentally, I'd argue that a much more extreme example of the same phenomenon of "beautiful crunchiness" can be found with LCO (recorded in a space with even worse room tone). LCO has very beautiful textures, but it somehow achieves this very particular, beautiful sharpness through (I conjecture) a combination of the dryness of the room, the craziness of the articulations, and the craziness of the micro tuning - which you would think would sound terrible, except it doesn't.

There's a thread here somewhere where someone suggests that the micro tuning in LCO might be understood something like detune in a synth - when you add a bit of reverb what might other be harshness (and can be, for instance, if you're writing for horror), somehow becomes transmogrified into richness and beauty.


So yes, by the time I add the cathedral reverb to SStS - and particularly all the extra short reflections this entails - it's a bit stylized. But all recordings are at least a bit stylized. And that said, I think it's also very beautiful, carries it's own aesthics and semiotics, and I do think that the early reflections from the room are important in achieving this aesthetic, and preserving a a deeper sense of realism - even if it's a slightly stylized realism.



Conversely, my go-to example (besides the OACE waves) that really shows the sonorous qualities of the AIR Lyndhurst space is this stupid little cello noodle:




Some people find that the bumpiness in the cross fades spoils the illusion for them. But I find that in avoiding phase alignment and other processing techniques that you would need to use to avoid the bumpiness, you really preserve the sonority of the samples and the space they're recorded in. And I'll take the deeply lyrical, "emotional realism" that flows from these sample in this space over a pristinely smooth modelled instrument any day.

The size and reverberance of AIR Lyndhurst surely can work to give SSO it's capacity for the epic. But to me, this noodle embodies the truly lyrical qualities of sonority the SF draw out of AIR Lundhurst samples. And you're obviously never going to this with the Studio series.

And yet, to get this sound, I'm using 100% close mic, and 45% tree. Which isn't especially "realistic". So even this is a bit stylized.


And thanks for the Williams example. It's helpful in understand the kind of sound are aspiring to with dryer libraries. Though my sympathies if you're trying to achieve that sound with ... well pretty much anything. I can't think of anything that would let a mock up capture that intimacy while preserving the sonority.
 
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I always liked it to read re-peat`s posts, because I know that he has so good working ears. He is able to hear a grass halm growing. And this is good meant from my point! re-peat has no qualms about calling facts by their names. And you know what? I don't think he has any bad intentions at all, absolutely none. He's just being honest and talking about what his ears are telling him.
 
Having both SStO Pro and BHCT, I have been wondering why the general attitude seems to be so negative towards the former but so positive towards the latter. Both where recorded in the same room, same mics, same recording/mixing engineer (Simon Rhodes) and more or less same musicians (as far as I know).

Yes, BHCT has different patches/combinations and different articulations (e.g. chords) and I like it for all the reasons that others like it as well. But I found that a lot of people were complaining about the sound/room of SStO in general but I did not find a lot of people complaining about the sound of BHCT. Why is that? I do understand, that some people are not happy with the "bumps" in Studio Brass (although they are by far not as many as people make them seem and it's far from unusable in my opinion) but that doesn't seem to be the only reason (by far not).

Am I missing something? Was BHCT deeper or better sampled and I am just not hearing it?
The only reasonable explanation I could come up with was marketing and expectations. I think that many people were expecting this to be Spitfire's version of the Cinematic Studio Series (because of the name) but it turned out to be quite different (very neutral room, more articulations but not as deeply/detailed/carefully sampled as in the Cinematic Studio Series, etc.).

Any thoughts or explanations?
BHCT and SStO Pro are both excellent!! I also really love Spitfire Masse too!!
 
Seven more hours to go before SStO Pro finishes downloading. I can’t wait to try it with BHCT. Just curious what other libraries play well with this combination. I read in the past that LCO Strings worked well with BHCT. Any others?
 
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