jaketanner
Senior Member
I don’t know AMBI and was directly referring to SF not being all they say they are. Lol. I know it wasn’t gonna be as game changing as they make it out so it’s even funnier now that my comment relates to AMBI more. LoL
Most Disappointing Library Purchase?
- Thread starter tsk
- Start date
ricoderks
Senior Member
Wow! I'm really glad I found your comment here. After using CSS series as main workhorse pretty much exclusively due to the top notch editing and workflow, I'm more and more interested in a different sound/hall. I spend the last week digging in to the SSO pro version but could not find Reeeeaaally helpful mockups or feedback. (I mean if you'd look at Andy B demos only its like instabuy anyway)... My guess based on the walkthroughs was that the "old" techniques or imperfections are pretty easy to hide in context of a full track, by layering. I focussed on a studio or small stage sound since I have css and after making tons of templates with it, trying new techniques and what not, I always came to the conclusion that the lower instruments, like you'd mentioned, are the most 'problematic'. Low brass, cello, basses mainly. All efforts of processing it helped a bit but i never managed to really make it sound open and detailed enough if that makes any sense. Thanks for sharing your advanced discoveries. I think its time for a hall template soonI take my words back. Kind of.
Here're my thoughts after using CSS exclusively for the past 2 years or so.
Just my opinion, mind you.
After a year(s) of messing around with Cinematic Studio Series, connecting my old SSD with SSO.... Wow. Felt like a fresh air. The timbre of AIR.... No amount of processing will ever give it to you. And with CSS, the more you try to EQ it, the worse it sounds. "Cleaning up" essentially kills the whole sound of it, making it even more "sterile" and weak, especially in the violas/celli/basses.
There are nasty build-ups that, however, contain crucial low end power (and character overall), so it's better to accept 95% of the sound you get out-of-the-box with CSS. I mean, on its own, the sound is beautiful. Just not "sleek".
CSB is a bit disappointing as well. Horns are great, but trombones are just not cutting it, sound-wise. It's not the smaller sections. It's the sound. If you're writing your parts the proper way, they don't sound as a section at all. JW/BH often used this standard section size, but it sounds nothing like if you write a three part chord with B.Tb./Tb./Tb. with CSB. Tuba is weak. Everything just like the strings sound like they're coming from the radio speakers and brass lacks the body/power/low-end. Trombones, again, quickly go to cuivre yet sound annoying and metallic and not at all warm and powerful. Trumpets are kind of okay-ish, maybe.
The biggest shock is that after 2+ years, having learned all the delay values, all the first legato note values for nudging etc... I can still say: I have never wasted so much time tweaking and adjusting instead of composing as with Cinematic Studio Series.
Still, it has a place to be. Despite its rather compressed dynamic range, all the aforementioned fluff and it, on rare occasions, sounding synthy, CSS is still the most realistic sounding strings library for exposed/sparse arrangement writing. I still love it.
SSO is returning to become my main tool, again. Despite the inconsistencies and wonky legato and stuff, it's SOOOOOOOO much easier and faster to work with, it's mind blowing. It just sounds "alive". I'm still not a fan of SCS, though. That sound is pretty bad to my ears. The real ensemble this size, would absolutely work. But hearing it exposed with its tiny violin section just screams samples to me, just like it did back when it came out (unless, you're using a lot of shorts/FX/trills).
What I will be doing is going back to layering, again. That way spitfire scripting is easily masked and you're left with a modern, smooth sound you're still hearing in all these big budget scores. The sound that I love (again, not telling you it's the only "correct" sound for you).
P.S.: Mixing is a breeze now. Layering adds another dimension to my sections. Legatos are buttery smooth. The dynamic range is HUGE. The hall and clarity of the recordings take my breath away, I'm once again excited to write music.
P.S.: Of course, you can make CSS sound great. It's just as soon as you directly compare it to AIR, it immediately starts to sound much more "low budget" or "old". It's perfect for making specific types of classical or writing in the style of 40s-90s. It's just no amount of programming or mixing will make it sound like your favourite AIR recordings (or other big halls they record classical/scores nowadays). And it's the truth. It's just not possible to get this lush sound with deep, enjoyable lows, clear mids (that you can clean up a bit to make it sound even more "current" like Zimmer/Wallfisch/you name it) and silky highs. And when you mix it, polish it with smart processing, you can make it sound almost like a real orchestra and like you had your mockup mixed by a Grammy winning engineer. Not to mention SSO is much more friendly to huge mixes with a lot of elements in it like massive sounding synths, choirs, percussion and etc. when you need it.
After 2+ years of not using Spitfire I'm here to say: I was wrong.
Well, partially, at least.
SSO is not perfect. But my own workarounds allow me to get rid of its missteps, bugs and scripting. Go as big or small as I want, or as loud or quiet. And to have all the benefits of the marvellous recordings and hall. The mixing is a breeze and it just sound much more "professional" (read: open; modern; enjoyable for listening). And it's not because of my programming skills. It's that overall sound. You can't change it. To make CSS sound remotely like that you need much more processing. And you still won't be able to reach that because with removing frequency build-ups you're also removing the power and fullness, especially in basses and celli. To be honest, CSS sounds the best when you just accept it sound and barely use any EQ or other plugins. It can sound very good. But reaching that typical "mastered" sleek sound you hear on hollywood scores nowadays will be borderline impossible. If you're after John Williams, Bernard Herrmann, 40s-90s(-ish) sound then look no further. Cinematic Studio will sound just like that straight out of the box.
That doesn't mean I'm a Spitfire fan out of a sudden. I fon't really care about the Albions I have. I never cared about Abbey Road and BBC SO while really capturing the orchestra's sound from what I heard in the demos is associating with strictly classical/concert music to me. And I'm not writing symphonies here. And their synths/guitars also never appealed to me.
I know many hate SSO. Many say it's "too big", etc. But to me, having an ideal sound in my head, with tricks, layering and smoke and mirrors, at least sith SSO I know it's achievable. While with Cinematic Studio it's a bit out of my hands. Small subtle textural things sound great with SSO. Medium things as well. Big action cues. Huge epic stuff. Sweeping romantic stuff. Song arrangements. Everything works while after 2 years I can't say the same for CSS/CSB/CSW. Its uses are rather limited.
Song arrangements were the weakest, in particular. I sometimes work with a few Grammy winning engineers/producers for their clients. When I send them stems, I mix them. They barely touched SSO ones. Cinematic Studios, however, is bit awkward to implement. It doesn't have "weight" or "lushness" to it. EQ, saturation or stereo wideners or what not. Doesn't sound bad. Sometimes, pretty good. Again, none of CSSeries is BAD. Not at all. But just never that "alive" or "professional" in a high budget production. This is not an attack on it. It's not that extreme or bad as you may think reading this. All I'm saying is the hall and the quality of samples matter.
I did learn a shit ton about mixing thanks to it. That's the biggest plus. But I'm not sure even Grammy winning engineers have managed to make it sound all that good in a mix. And that's with a band and vocals on them. The orchestra wasn't even a main focus. (And that's on a dozen of projects). While my wonky programming from years and years ago with early SSO still sounds amazing. There's just that magic and extra "oomph" thanks to the quality of samples + hall.
But CSS series has a very special place in my nerd heart. Never gonna ditch it, and I'll always use it when a client wants this specific studio or small scoring stage sound!
Tim Clarke
Member
Tim Clarke
Member
I’ve given up on IK. I actually would use Modo Bass a lot but it behaves very poorly for me.
jbuhler
Senior Member
Often you don’t even need to layer. The context of the orchestra is enough to mitigate. But the libraries of SSO, especially SSS and SCS, also have quite a lot of internal redundancy so when you encounter an issue you can often side step it within the library by going to an alternative patch. Such built-in redundancy is often overlooked these days as a feature and it’s one of the downsides of the turn to less expensive, more streamlined, only bread and butter product designs. It’s all well and good until you need a workaround…
Trash Panda
Clueless nitwit
There are three definites in life: death, taxes, and AMBi never missing a beat.
Erick - BVA
Music is more than just color and rhythm
Same. I loved some of their stuff. I've used Amplitube quite a bit in the past. However, software just randomly stops working and it's never straightforward to get it working again. Then they charge money to access old downloads.
Syncopator
Active Member
Back when I was researching these, I found various comparisons by users who felt the SampleModeling version was better than the SWAM version, so I went with SM.
I don't recall the differences, off-hand, and opinions will vary, but if you're interested, there are comparisons available, including here on VIC, IIRC.
Evans
Senior Member
Oh, yeah, I've read it all, watched all the YouTube videos I could find, and searched through several Discord servers for full comment history!
kgdrum
“Making a mess & calling it Art is where it’s at!”
or a GLITCH! Hail to the GLITCH QUEENtm.
Last edited:
mbishop
Senior Member
I think if you don’t have a breath controller to use with them, you probably will be disappointed. It makes such a huge difference!
Evans
Senior Member
Yep yep, I've got a B&B2 that I sometimes use with Infinite Brass and need to set up for VWinds.
Some day, I'll cave.
Alchemedia
Decomposer
Worse that BDT B&R?
InsomniaEmperor
Senior Member
I tried it for free and it feels very watered down. East West at least doesn’t nerf the subscription version but you have fewer articulations and dynamic layers, no key switches until recently, and you’re stuck in a single mic mix so good luck trying to mix it with other libraries.
QuiteAlright
Gastronomer
Is it confirmed that there are fewer dynamic layers?
NYC Composer
Senior Member
I’ve never had a single problem with Modo Bass.
jesussaddle
Senior Member
m'Okay but. Sales are here!
I don't know how to deal with Opus player either. I had to go to Youtube where someone figured out part of it - I still don't know how to get the cc assignments the way I want or expected them to pre-load because they come pre-configured for some purpose and I'm afraid to wreck it before I understand it.
