Mono, narrow or phase-coherent stereo Piano Libraries?

[zaybz]

Hi all,

A series of related queries, which I feel this board is better placed than anywhere else to answer!

We all, myself included, listen to the trailers for the latest piano sampler instrument and revel in the immersion that a wide stereo image affords. It's a massive draw to the ears, and I understand why companies go in that direction. It certainly makes for a fantastic solo playing experience with high quality headphones or monitors.

However, it does not necessarily make for the most usable piano in a mix.

A telltale sign of a sampled piano in a mix is a too-wide stereo image, which competes with other elements for its place in the stereo field. Compare that to classic recordings from the 50s, 60s, 70s and 80s, where the piano is very often narrow or piano, allowing for a rich, spacious and uncluttered mix.

I often find myself narrowing the stereo image with a plugin, with a predictably negative impact on phase coherence and richness of sound.

So my two (or three!) related questions are...


1a) Are there any high quality grand piano sampler instruments with a great mono mic option?

1b) Are there any high quality grand piano sampler instruments with a good narrow stereo mic option?

and

2) Are there any libraries which use a phase-coherent stereo mic'ing technique? So that once collapsed from stereo to mono, there is no phase cancellation (e.g. Mid-Side or Blumlein)

Many thanks for any help!

Click to read more...

 

[chopin4525]

I think your analysis of the problem has indentified likely the wrong enemy. What you need is not a library with mono options but a good mixing ability to be able to pinpoint frequencies that fight with each other and "make space" for the different element of the mix. In a normal recording the balance happens automatically (provided you know how to place the mics) but when using VIs it is totally up to you. You have to work on your patches in your context and switching from stereo to mono can be of help only in some particular cases.
I do say this because I find very strange (to almost impossible) you haven't found so far a decent phase coherent library or one that doesn't allow you to have a decent mono sound. Pianos are very rarely recorded in mono and when it happens it is usually because you have other mics in the room which expand that spot mic panorama.

 

[CGR]

The official C.Bechstein Digital Grand has a separate MS mic perspective, for adjusting from true mono through to wide stereo. Also, the new German D in Ivory 3 also has a MS mic perspective, and the Side B stereo mic set has solid phase coherence.

 

[CGR]

Also, I can highly recommend the Ambisonics versions of the Kontakt based grand pianos ('Elegance' - Yamaha C5, and 'Pianoforte' – Fazioli F-212) from Audio Brewers. Alejandro @AudioBrewers could chime in with an overview of the flexibility & benefits of Ambisonic mic-ing for this situation.

 

[zaybz]

I think your analysis of the problem has indentified likely the wrong enemy. What you need is not a library with mono options but a good mixing ability to be able to pinpoint frequencies that fight with each other and "make space" for the different element of the mix. In a normal recording the balance happens automatically (provided you know how to place the mics) but when using VIs it is totally up to you. You have to work on your patches in your context and switching from stereo to mono can be of help only in some particular cases.
I do say this because I find very strange (to almost impossible) you haven't found so far a decent phase coherent library or one that doesn't allow you to have a decent mono sound. Pianos are very rarely recorded in mono and when it happens it is usually because you have other mics in the room which expand that spot mic panorama.

Thanks for the reply.

That's an interesting perspective but I disagree.

Many libraries I've used (not a huge number, I do admit) seem to use XY or spaced pair, based on how poorly they sum to mono. Which is why I'm asking this question! But aside from that, a rich mono option is very valuable, I feel.

Piano is very often recorded in mono, especially in older recordings. Just one example I happened to be listening to this morning: Pancho and Lefty by Townes Van Zandt. These days it's less common but does happen, especially in recordings which emulate a 60s/70s sound. And what's very, very common is a relatively narrow image. Whether that be a narrow blumlein / MS or a mono spot with a hint of wider room / stereo pair. (Of course I'm not talking about solo piano music, where you have all the width in the world for the piano to occupy).

The standard for sampler instrument pianos is very wide stereo image. This isn't standard for recordings.

Apologies if I'm repeating myself, it's getting late here!

But I'm still very much curious if anyone knows any other piano which fit the bill of the original question.

Thanks!

 

[zaybz]

The official C.Bechstein Digital Grand has a separate MS mic perspective, for adjusting from true mono through to wide stereo. Also, the new German D in Ivory 3 also has a MS mic perspective, and the Side B stereo mic set has solid phase coherence.

Brilliant, I will definitely check these out. Thanks very much!!

 

[MartinH.]

What happens when you take a stereo recorded piano that isn't too extremely wide and just use one of the two mics as a mono mic and maybe apply compression or a tilt eq to make the volume of the keys a bit more even if you feel like it's not even enough?

 

[drjee]

If you use mid-side processing for narrowing the stereo image that will not impact phase coherence. I suggest the free Voxengo MSED:

Voxengo MSED - Mid-Side Encoder-Decoder Plugin VST, AU, AAX

Free Professional audio plugin for mid-side processing which is able to encode/decode mid-side signal, adjust levels inline, and display stereo information.

www.voxengo.com

Of course, if you remove/reduce the side signal that may impact the impression of the sound (so that you perceive it as less rich).

 

[CGR]

XY mic-ing results in a tight stereo image, with positive phase correlation, which translates to mono playback very well. I have the Rode NT-4 stereo mic which has its SDC capsules permanently fixed in an XY setup.

 

[AudioBrewers]

Also, I can highly recommend the Ambisonics versions of the Kontakt based grand pianos ('Elegance' - Yamaha C5, and 'Pianoforte' – Fazioli F-212) from Audio Brewers. Alejandro @AudioBrewers could chime in with an overview of the flexibility & benefits of Ambisonic mic-ing for this situation.

That's right,

One of the advantages of Ambisonics, is that because the soundfield has been recorded in 360-degrees, you can narrow-down the Stereo image as much as you want (even to mono), always getting a 1:1 representation of the sound (no hard-panning ugly images), and you you ALWAYS get a phase-coherent signal no matter what!

 

[zaybz]

XY mic-ing results in a tight stereo image, with positive phase correlation, which translates to mono playback very well. I have the Rode NT-4 stereo mic which has its SDC capsules permanently fixed in an XY setup.

Yes, my mistake, I meant to say 'spaced pair or near coincident', not 'space pair and XY'

 

[zaybz]

If you use mid-side processing for narrowing the stereo image that will not impact phase coherence. I suggest the free Voxengo MSED:

Voxengo MSED - Mid-Side Encoder-Decoder Plugin VST, AU, AAX

Free Professional audio plugin for mid-side processing which is able to encode/decode mid-side signal, adjust levels inline, and display stereo information.

www.voxengo.com

Of course, if you remove/reduce the side signal that may impact the impression of the sound (so that you perceive it as less rich).

Thanks

But presumably this is only effective for MS signals, MS recordings?
Narrowing the stereo image of an AB or ORTF is always going to introduce phase issues.

 

[Francisco Lamolda]

BBCSO Piano Pro has a Mono mic that was used by the BBC when recording music in the 50s. It has a very vintage sound. It also has some stereo mics that provides a mid/close sound that can be modified to make it more mono. It may help you.

Other piano that I know has like an option to sound mono and old is Piano in Blue. This one has I think two controllers to make it mono and to make it sound vintage. It has a beautiful tone doing this.

 

[drjee]

Thanks

But presumably this is only effective for MS signals, MS recordings?
Narrowing the stereo image of an AB or ORTF is always going to introduce phase issues.

No, it works with any signal and mid-side processing does not introduce any phase issues. It is 100% mono compatible. It is, however, different to mixing down to mono. One just reduces the side signal, that is, if there is different frequency content in the side signal, the frequency distribution may change. If this is an issue will depend on how the piano signal was recorded and mixed. However, you may correct this with an equalizer. Just try MSED (or look if your DAW comes with an mid-side plugin) and see if this method works for you. After all, it's free and can be applied with any piano lib or instrument.

 

[zaybz]

No, it works with any signal and mid-side processing does not introduce any phase issues. It is 100% mono compatible. It is, however, different to mixing down to mono. One just reduces the side signal, that is, if there is different frequency content in the side signal, the frequency distribution may change. If this is an issue will depend on how the piano signal was recorded and mixed. However, you may correct this with an equalizer. Just try MSED (or look if your DAW comes with an mid-side plugin) and see if this method works for you. After all, it's free and can be applied with any piano lib or instrument.

But if it's not a mid side recording, how does it adjust the mid channel? If no mid channel exists? Perhaps someone else could weigh in.

"If this is an issue will depend on how the piano signal was recorded and mixed" - precisely.

Anyway, I will give it a try. Thanks

 

[zaybz]

BBCSO Piano Pro has a Mono mic that was used by the BBC when recording music in the 50s. It has a very vintage sound. It also has some stereo mics that provides a mid/close sound that can be modified to make it more mono. It may help you.

Other piano that I know has like an option to sound mono and old is Piano in Blue. This one has I think two controllers to make it mono and to make it sound vintage. It has a beautiful tone doing this.

Interesting, I will check those out. (Not a fan of Piano in Blue, very clunky velocities, but I will give it another look). Thanks!

 

[drjee]

But if it's not a mid side recording, how does it adjust the mid channel? If no mid channel exists? Perhaps someone else could weigh in.

"If this is an issue will depend on how the piano signal was recorded and mixed" - precisely.

Anyway, I will give it a try. Thanks

Well, this information is easy to get. Mid = L + R (while Side = L - R). Any stereo signal can be converted to mid-side. Here is more information:

Newly discovered: Mid/Side Processing – Update 2018 | sonible

In recent years, the audio engineering community has rediscovered Mid/Side processing and has made it a part of its standard repertoire.

www.sonible.com

But I do not understand: why don't you just try it when there is a great and even free solution?

 

[cthonophonic]

The Real Piano from Straight Ahead Samples has a mono mic:

The Real Piano | Sample Library for Kontakt

www.straightaheadsamples.com

It's free, too!

 

[chopin4525]

The standard for sampler instrument pianos is very wide stereo image.

I am afraid this is simply not true unless you pick a piano VI that is "production ready". You can pick f.e. any piano recorded by Uli for NI (Noire, Galaxy Vintage D, The Grandeur, Una Corda...) or any Session Keys piano and you can listen to a nice stereo image, good to excellent phase correlation and they also provide you a stereo width parameter that allows you to collapse the signal from stereo to mono and anything in between those two.
Good sample libraries are "normalized" after recording, that means aligning samples so that everything is in phase but also checking volume levels of the different notes across the range so that there isn't any note that pops out or that is slightly softer because of mic placement. That's why it is possible to create from them very good mono compatible sounds using the basic MS technique that @drjee has already kindly laid out to you.

 

[zaybz]

I am afraid this is simply not true unless you pick a piano VI that is "production ready". You can pick f.e. any piano recorded by Uli for NI (Noire, Galaxy Vintage D, The Grandeur, Una Corda...) or any Session Keys piano and you can listen to a nice stereo image, good to excellent phase correlation

It is a fundamental acoustical fact that spaced and near-coincident techniques introduce some comb filtering and phase problems, due to the difference in the time of arrival of the sound to the two microphones. These can be minimised by a good engineer, but they’re still there, and summing the signal to mono will cause phase cancellation.

Perfect mono compatibility is precisely one of the reasons engineers use Blumlein or MS, as the sound arrives at the two capsules at the same (or nearly the same) time.

Which is why I’m asking about libraries with good mono mics, a narrow stereo image, or which use coincident mic techniques.

and they also provide you a stereo width parameter that allows you to collapse the signal from stereo to mono and anything in between those two

I’ve tried these and they generally seem to simply pan the L and R mics more centrally. Which of course is something I want to avoid due to the phase issues inherent in that. But I will investgate those libraries you suggest, thanks.

Good sample libraries are "normalized" after recording, that means aligning samples so that everything is in phase

You cannot really ‘match’ the L and R signals of a given stereo piano sample, as fixing one frequency or frequency range will ‘break’ another.

but also checking volume levels of the different notes across the range so that there isn't any note that pops out or that is slightly softer because of mic placement

This is not the issue at hand

That's why it is possible to create from them very good mono compatible sounds using the basic MS technique that @drjee has already kindly laid out to you

Dr. Jee's suggestion that it's possible to successfully convert an AB LR recording to MS and narrow its stereo field, without retaining the phase cancellation issues inherent to spaced techniques, is an absolute bombshell to me! I'm definitely going to give it a try over the weekend!

Thanks