Media Music: only got a degree in Jazz Composition - I lack the knowledge and it's getting frustrating.

[Ray]

Oh, please don't give up. Actually, a lot of people want to study Jazz, but only wandering around the door of Jazz. I believe you are very talented, you just need some time to find the right direction.

Thank you! I assure you, though, that it's not only talent that's needed. I lack the specific knowledge on how to work with multiple instruments at once, in order to complete a coherent musical idea.

I find this really hard.

But well, then again, I'm not really talented - I don't get to hear melodies and harmonies in my mind, say, like Beethoven did I work with an idea on the spot and try to make it work by "engineering", otherwise the process would be flowy. That's more like lack of talent! Haha. Kidding, but also being serious.

 

[YuyaoSG]

Thank you! I assure you, though, that it's not only talent that's needed. I lack the specific knowledge on how to work with multiple instruments at once, in order to complete a coherent musical idea.

I find this really hard.

Based on my experience.
Here are some advices:
1: Understand the difference between Jazz and media music(film, video or theme orchestra music). This will help you to change the way of thinking about composition and avoiding many problems when you composing.
For me, Jazz has a lot of improvisation and in most cases, melody instruments(piano trumpets or others) are dominant. But the media music (most are orchestra music) is the interactive art between the different large sections( strings, woodwinds, and brass).
a): Timbre change also needs to be considered in orchestral music. For example, the timbre of the violins and flute play the same melody is different from the timbre of the same melody played by the trumpet and the clarinet. The woodwinds section is the group with the most color tension. Different colors can be combined between different woodwind instruments.

b): The transfer of the melody is also very important, do not always put the melody to one instrument or one instrument section.

c): Try to avoid having one instrument section do everything(Unless you only have one string orchestra section).

2:Finding some orchestra music you like and find the scores. Then, do some mockups. You will learn how to use MIDI technology, familiar with the instrument libraries and chord progression, orchestration from the scores.

3:Trying to compose 1 or 2 minutes piece use what you have learned.

4:Learning orchestra mixing.

5:Repeat all the steps.

Hope these will help you out.

Best,
Yuyao

 

[José Herring]

This is what I'm trying, but since I don't have access to higher education/professional online courses (yet) in this field, I'm confined to audition and rendition only. Do you think this will be effective in the long run?

Yes, along with any interviews that you can glean for tips.

Tom Holkenborg has an excellent video series. A must for anybody attempting modern day film/tv/game scoring imo.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCor9SN3lpO-BT2aBvAwBptw

 

[cmillar]

I live in Romania, actually. That was funny.

But thank you so much for the advice and for mentioning Michael Hewer. I'll see what I can pull out of this!

Ha! Well anyways....check him out!

His 'long-form' pieces (Symphony, Violin Concerto, etc.) are wonderful.

He says his recording of 'Symphony' is all virtual. It's an amazing accomplishment when you think about it. Would be great to hear a real orchestra perform it.

We can all get inspired from what Mike is now doing (and has done!)

 

[Ray]

Based on my experience.
Here are some advices:
1: Understand the difference between Jazz and media music(film, video or theme orchestra music). This will help you to change the way of thinking about composition and avoiding many problems when you composing.
For me, Jazz has a lot of improvisation and in most cases, melody instruments(piano trumpets or others) are dominant. But the media music (most are orchestra music) is the interactive art between the different large sections( strings, woodwinds, and brass).
a): Timbre change also needs to be considered in orchestral music. For example, the timbre of the violins and flute play the same melody is different from the timbre of the same melody played by the trumpet and the clarinet. The woodwinds section is the group with the most color tension. Different colors can be combined between different woodwind instruments.

b): The transfer of the melody is also very important, do not always put the melody to one instrument or one instrument section.

c): Try to avoid having one instrument section do everything(Unless you only have one string orchestra section).

2:Finding some orchestra music you like and find the scores. Then, do some mockups. You will learn how to use MIDI technology, familiar with the instrument libraries and chord progression, orchestration from the scores.

3:Trying to compose 1 or 2 minutes piece use what you have learned.

4:Learning orchestra mixing.

5:Repeat all the steps.

Hope these will help you out.

Best,
Yuyao

Thank you so much for this detailed info!

Indeed, I agree that scoring / orchestral music in general is pretty much about textures and timbres - I mean with those alone you can get something that stands on its own.

Will look through all this and will stick to it, this is really good. Thank you again and all the best to you!

 

[Ray]

Yes, along with any interviews that you can glean for tips.

Tom Holkenborg has an excellent video series. A must for anybody attempting modern day film/tv/game scoring imo.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCor9SN3lpO-BT2aBvAwBptw

Thanks a whole lot!

 

[YuyaoSG]

Thank you so much for this detailed info!

Indeed, I agree that scoring / orchestral music in general is pretty much about textures and timbres - I mean with those alone you can get something that stands on its own.

Will look through all this and will stick to it, this is really good. Thank you again and all the best to you!

I highly recommend you to check out The Planet by Gustav Holst. The Mars chapter can give you information about how to deal with the big brass section and when you composing a big brass section, what will other sections going to do and it will help you deal with action theme music. The Venus chapter can give you information about how to deal with the woodwinds part(timbre, color, etc.). The last chapter, Neptune. To analyze its chord progressions, you will be pleasantly surprised to find that these harmonies are common in the Harry Potter's theme of John Williams. Anyway, hope this helps you too.

 

[Markrs]

it's a tricky question as "media music" is a huge thing. There are so many types. And the stuff that can make you a living is just as varied. A friend had a decent few years off a Drone !...and My biggest paycheck came from something I slapped together in 30 mins. So in all honesty at the entry level all I can say is write.

You can do this two ways. And you can do both !.

Number 1: Pick ten pieces of music you'd like to be able to write. Music that you wish that you understood fluently. Make them reasonably short. No Longer than 5 mins to start with.

So about 9 years ago I decide that producing records was coming to an end as Lucrative career and wanted to get into media music. I loaded this up into Cubase.



And then spent about a month trying to copy it. The goal was to learn as much as possible. A month later I had a pretty decent clone that fooled a friend who was a TV composer...Job Done. In the process I learned How the harmony worked, How the textures where applied . I picked up some fundamentals Like "Chromatic Mediants" and "Chord Planning".

I did this with other cues and pieces too. Over the course of the next three years I spent a lot of time replicating all sorts of music. From Zimmer to Faure.

Number 2: give yourself a job. Pick a briefe, ( shampoo commercial ) and give yourself 4 hours to write a 30 second piece. Then imagine that the client suddenly wants "Reggae Elements"....Add them.....then..."Actually could you do this tune as a Viennese waltz ? "...and so on. Do this a lot !...test yourself. Imagine being asked to make it "More medieval" ????

A huge part of the Job is writing to order.


Lastly and really really important . ALL the music you write for this Job is just serving a purpose. It's to be used to enhance usually picture and dialogue, It's NOT supposed to function in isolation. If It does...bonus...but THAT is NOT it's purpose. So ALL that fancy voice leading and beautiful resolved French 6th chords just don't matter.

However !.......they might to you. So get good at the music you want to write....but don't be upset if no one wants it !!!!......be able to give them what they DO want

best

ed

This is great advice Ed, I have bookmarked it so I can easily find it.

 

[Ray]

Start simple at first. Your choice of course, but Haydn symphonies from the late 1780's onward are a good place to begin. Haydn developed largely by variation, and a lot of this variation was by texture and re-orchestration.

This is absolutely great because it gives me a specific place to start from.

It'll teach you about economy of ideas and what you can do with just three basic elements. Sometimes two elements, occasionally four, and rarely, five. If you need examples of how to do this I'll PM some to you.

I might actually need to have some of these PM'd indeed, thank you! Although I already listened 2 minutes worth of 3rd Tchaikovsky symphony (with score ofc) and I might have caught on, but just to make sure. Thanks!
And, regarding this, what do you mean by "instrument choir is the easiest to balance" ?

So, a good orchestral sketch is one that pretty much "orchestrates" itself.

Totally agree, and if I recall correctly, I've heard this being said a few times during my last university year (we did a brief course on orchestration but it was so dense and rushed that the students barely caught on, myself included).

Thanks for the astonishing amount of info you've put into this post, this is absolutely great and it's going to sit bookmarked along with the other replies as well.

And bonus, yes, we did big band orchestration, but it was as dense and as rushed as the classical orchestration course, so again, I didn't take much away.
I think the main problem I have is with lack of creativity when it comes to textures and nice melodies.


All the best to you and thank you!

 

[ALittleNightMusic]

Like I said, start simple. Sometimes new orchestrators want to go right away to the big, fancy and famous "orchestration-y" pieces that have "lots of stuff" in them. But before all that you need to study scores with lots of pure tones, transparency, obvious textures, and less massing. You want to be able to hear everything you see in the score as much as possible. Haydn and Mozart all by themselves will give you a very strong foundation on which to build.

I'll answer your question about balance when I send you some examples of different types of orchestral-compostion analysis I've done in the past. You alter how you do the analysis depending on your focus for that particular one. It'll prolly be a bit of Tchaikovsky, Stravinsky, R. Strauss, Vaughn-Williams, and John Williams (just simple short excerpts for all). Check your pm's sometime this weekend or early next week.

If you’re willing, I think we’d all benefit from this if you could post it here too please

 

[Ray]

And then spent about a month trying to copy it. The goal was to learn as much as possible. A month later I had a pretty decent clone that fooled a friend who was a TV composer...Job Done. In the process I learned How the harmony worked, How the textures where applied . I picked up some fundamentals Like "Chromatic Mediants" and "Chord Planning".

Great advice, thank you! I too, at this stage, do musical cloning regularly, so I guess I should continue.
Also, congratulations!

Then imagine that the client suddenly wants "Reggae Elements"....Add them.....then..."Actually could you do this tune as a Viennese waltz ? "...and so on. Do this a lot !...test yourself. Imagine being asked to make it "More medieval"

Haha, will stick this. Thanks for the idea!

 

[Ray]

Like I said, start simple. Sometimes new orchestrators want to go right away to the big, fancy and famous "orchestration-y" pieces that have "lots of stuff" in them. But before all that you need to study scores with lots of pure tones, transparency, obvious textures, and less massing. You want to be able to hear everything you see in the score as much as possible. Haydn and Mozart all by themselves will give you a very strong foundation on which to build.

I'll answer your question about balance when I send you some examples of different types of orchestral-compostion analysis I've done in the past. You alter how you do the analysis depending on your focus for that particular one. It'll prolly be a bit of Tchaikovsky, Stravinsky, R. Strauss, Vaughn-Williams, and John Williams (just simple short excerpts for all). Check your pm's sometime this weekend or early next week.

This is surreal, I swear. Thanks a whole lot!
All the best to you for this act of kindness (I really am not used to people helping other people to this specific extent. I'll make sure to pass it on).
Thanks again and I literally can't wait to see what this is about!

 

[Ray]

I highly recommend you to check out The Planet by Gustav Holst. The Mars chapter can give you information about how to deal with the big brass section and when you composing a big brass section, what will other sections going to do and it will help you deal with action theme music. The Venus chapter can give you information about how to deal with the woodwinds part(timbre, color, etc.). The last chapter, Neptune. To analyze its chord progressions, you will be pleasantly surprised to find that these harmonies are common in the Harry Potter's theme of John Williams. Anyway, hope this helps you too.

This is super helpful advice!

 

[waveheavy]

Old thread, but here goes.

Did you know that orchestrating is simply the idea of applying instruments to an already written sketch of simple harmony and a melody? The idea is start simple with something simple, a motif of just a few notes even, then apply chord harmony that works with that. You do this with Jazz composition really, only using more complex chords maybe. With orchestra, you sketch in simple harmony first. You can add more complexity later.

Once you learn the ranges of the orchestra instruments, you will eventually get in a habit of knowing which instruments can play what you see on the music staves. Orchestration 1 at Berklee Boston will teach you all those ranges and types of instruments and intricacies.

Then Orchestration 2 gets into how to move the emotions with applying the orchestra instruments, builds, combinations, etc. There's even an excellent short course online called Orchestration Recipes. https://orchestrationrecipes.thinkific.com/