Just how big do Logic files get these days?

[Soundhound]

I'm working on some spots, so nothings more than 60 sec long. The Logic projects are about a gig in size. some have tons of instruments but nothing compared to serious orchestral stuff. I keep using the Clean Up function in Project Management but it doesn't seem to have much effect and then it bloats again. In Project handling I have auto backup set to 3 alternative versions and recent Items set to system default. And I tend to purge unused samples after writing and turn off and hide unused tracks that I want to keep around.

Is there something else to help with this, or is this how it goes nowadays?

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[aldous]

I'm working on some spots, so nothings more than 60 sec long. The Logic projects are about a gig in size. some have tons of instruments but nothing compared to serious orchestral stuff. I keep using the Clean Up function in Project Management but it doesn't seem to have much effect and then it bloats again. In Project handling I have auto backup set to 3 alternative versions and recent Items set to system default. And I tend to purge unused samples after writing and turn off and hide unused tracks that I want to keep around.

Sounds like the project package is filling up with unused audio, which makes sense if you've been bouncing stems a fair bit recently... Logic retains audio files in the project package even if you've deleted all the regions that reference them. Project clean-up doesn't remove them either.

To check, press 'F' (or "Window", "Show Browsers") to open the file browser, check "Project" is highlighted at the top, and press Shift+U (or "Edit", "Select Unused".) You can then use "Audio File", "Delete Files" if you're sure you don't need them.

[Edit: this can really hurt if you save a project with unused audio as a template without realising, as that audio will get duplicated across every project based on that template. I can tell you from experience: it soon adds up ]

 

[Soundhound]

Thanks Aldous!

I'm not sure that it's audio files? in one project for example there's 100mb of audio files 100 mb movie file (I bounce out to another folder for movie files), 18mb freeze files, bu the project file itself is 630mb. And it's fairly new, the result of a Save A Copy As. It has two at the most alternatives, it's a 60 second project using maybe 50-75? tracks. there might be another hundred tracks in there disabled. Seems really big for a project file for that?

Seems that way to me but I haven't been that active the last year or so, so maybe things are changing fast?

 

[dgburns]

Years ago I seem to remember there being issues if you allowed too many levels of ‘undo’. So I set them to 15 or so. If you leave it at the default, it’s 99 or something like that. I don’t know exactly what the impact is, but I seem to remember that it’s possible many significant changes could add up to alot of data….. but would need someone more knowledgeable to confirm.
My template tends to be around 14 gig, but it doesn’t usually get much more than 20 gig file size. I never use the package, I always use the folder type of LPX file hierarchy.

 

[Soundhound]

Thanks, I lowered the undo number and will see if it has an effect as I work on the project this week. But if you're working with files that get to be about 20gigs in size then maybe a 1 or 2 gig file for a small (short anyway) project like this isn't out of the ordinary these days?

 

[aldous]

I'm not sure that it's audio files? in one project for example there's 100mb of audio files 100 mb movie file (I bounce out to another folder for movie files), 18mb freeze files, bu the project file itself is 630mb.

Did you check in Logic's audio file browser window, though? It may be something else, but I really recommend checking that even if you're sceptical. I'll try to explain why, since there are a few things going on...

It sounds like your project looks something like this in Finder?

• ProjectName (folder)
  • ProjectName.logicx (file, 630mb)
  • Audio Files (folder)
    • [~100mb of audio files]
  • Freeze Files (folder)
    • [~18mb of freeze files]

If so, that's a project that's been saved in "folder mode". In "package mode", you only get a single ProjectName.logicx file, and the contents of Audio Files, Freeze Files, etc packaged up inside that. (In both modes, behind the scenes, the .logicx file is just a compressed folder... like a zip file.)

Often, when copying projects or using "Save As" or "Save Copy As", it's easy to end up in a mixture of both modes, where some audio data is held in the Audio Files folder, and other audio data is held inside the project_name.logicx file. Using the Logic browser I mentioned in my first post, you can see both and either tidy it up or possibly confirm for sure that it isn't the problem.

[Edit: pretty much all of this also applies if you're using your own samples in one of Logic's sampler plugins, by the way. They should show up in the audio file browser too. Just to be clear, though: the samples used by Kontakt instruments and similar are always held separately; they don't contribute to project file size.]

And it's fairly new, the result of a Save A Copy As. It has two at the most alternatives, it's a 60 second project using maybe 50-75? tracks. there might be another hundred tracks in there disabled. Seems really big for a project file for that?

Yes, 630MB is way too big for that. Tracks don't take up much space. My orchestral template, with a track for everything in BBCSO Pro, plus a few more libraries, is 17MB.

 

[Soundhound]

Ah, missed some of this, thanks. I always save in folder mode. In trying to clean up a project for the 30 second spot, I went into Logic’s browser and got rid of the audio files for the 60, after deleting the tracks for them. I then deleted the audio files from the Audio folder in the project folder in the Finder. Apparently you have to do thst, removing them from the Logic browser doesn’t remove the actual files from the project folder? (same for movie files) That just lowered the audio folder from 100mg to abkut 40 though, so not much effect on the size of the Logic project file itself.

Maybe i’m not understanding but are you sayjng there’s a way to go into that Logic project file and clean out the unused audio?

 

[aldous]

I seem to remember that it’s possible many significant changes could add up to alot of data….. but would need someone more knowledgeable to confirm.

If you make a "destructive change" to a large amount of data, then Logic has to keep a copy of it so you can undo... but the undo steps are cleared when you close the project. After closing, Logic relies on the project backups mechanism to provide undo functionality.

The project backups shouldn't bloat the project size too much either: it only backs up configuration (like tracks, plugins) and MIDI data, etc. It won't take extra copies of audio files unless there's been a destructive change. In other words, if you have it set to keep 10 project backups, and you've got 200MB of audio in the project, I would expect the project to weight in at ~300MB not ~2000MB.

My template tends to be around 14 gig, but it doesn’t usually get much more than 20 gig file size. I never use the package, I always use the folder type of LPX file hierarchy.

In an empty template!? If that's just a few hundred tracks of VIs and MIDI data, then that's about 13.9GB bigger than it should be :-/

 

[aldous]

Maybe i’m not understanding but are you sayjng there’s a way to go into that Logic project file and clean out the unused audio?

The audio browser should be the way to do that, as long as you were looking at the Project tab, and at files stored in the .logicx file. The size of the .logicx file didn't reduce?

Here's a different approach: close the project, find the .logicx file in Finder, and Control+click it. It should give you an option to "Show package contents". Click that, and it'll show you the files held inside the project file. Don't delete anything this way, though: this is just for working out where the space is going. It's better to do the actual cleaning via Logic.

The first place to look for large files is the Media folder and sub-folders. If you find a lot of data stored in Media/Audio Files, that tells you that you need to check again in the Logic file browser; if under Freeze Files, that suggests looking for hidden frozen tracks that need unfreezing/deleting; etc...

If still no luck, leave the Media folder and look under "Alternatives", "000". There'll be a file called ProjectData there. How large is that?

 

[Soundhound]

Thanks! I did Show package contents and there's no Media folder. In the Alternatives folder there are three 000, 001 and 002, which matches the number of Alternatives in the project. The ProjectData sizes are 166, 183 and 77. In the 001 folder there is also a Project File Backups folder which is roughly the same size as the accompanying ProjectData file...

 

[aldous]

Those sizes are all in megabytes, right? They seem large to me (about 10x the size of the BBCSO template). The majority of the space in ProjectData is used by plugin settings - at least, in the ones I've looked at properly - so I imagine there are some plugins taking a lot of space. It could be something else but I'd have to examine one of the ProjectData files to know for sure.

As an experiment you could save out a Logic channel preset (from the "Settings" menu on the channel strip) for a few tracks and see how large the resulting CST (channel settings) files are. Channel settings files are more-or-less the same format used to store per-track information in the Logic project file. So, if a track's preset saves out at 1MB, and you have 100 similar tracks, then that's a 100MB project right there.

 

[charlieclouser]

You can destructively delete un-needed audio files in a Project right from Logic's media browser, with no need to manually go to the Finder and try to figure out what files are safe to delete.

Browser > Project tab (not "All Files" tab) > Edit menu > Select Unused, and then:

Browser > Project tab > Audio Files menu > Delete Files.

Just hitting the Delete key will only REMOVE those files from the Browser, but will not destructively delete them from disk. I have a four-key sequence that I hammer on to remove un-needed audio files instantly and permanently. With the default key command set in Logic, it's:

Open Browser, then Select All (command-A), Collapse View (left arrow), Select Unused (shift-U), Delete Files (command-delete).

Then, after that's done, if I want to remove the remaining zillion un-needed Regions to clean up the list in the Browser, in the Browser tab I do Select All (command-A), Expand View (right arrow), Select Unused (shift-U), and then normal Delete - this removes the selected items from the list but doesn't delete anything from disk - which cleans up the list. If you do this part first, then you'll have removed un-needed Regions AND their parent files from the Browser, but you won't have freed up any disk space. So do this step second, as it is only a cosmetic and organizational clean-up.

You gotta be careful with that Command-Delete key though - Logic will give you a warning dialog but once you okay that dialog those files are gone gone gone. And you need to have a good handle on the relationship between Audio Files and the Regions within them, and how the Select Unused will behave with both Audio Files that contain NO Regions that are used within the current Project, and how it will behave with Audio Files that DO have some regions that are used within the current Project.

I don't like to save Projects as Packages though - it keeps your drives nice and tidy but means extra steps (Control-Click and Show Package Contents) in order to get at the actual sub-folders for Audio Files etc. The main advantage to using Packages is so that new users don't accidentally transfer JUST the Project file itself from within the Folder, and then wonder why their buddy didn't get the Audio Files that the Project needs in order to play correctly. Plus, I like to see the guts of my Project Folders easily and quickly, and if I do want to make a duplicate of the Project WITHOUT duplicating all the Audio Files, and without using Alternatives, then I can duplicate the JUST the Project file within the parent Folder, and both Projects will refer to the same set of Audio Files and be in the same place. Handy.

Also note that even if you have saved as a Folder, you can still Control-Click + Show Package Contents on the Project file itself to reveal the sub-folders for Alternatives etc. Try both and do some Control-Clicking to get a sense of what's stored where.

And it's worth exploring the various options and behavior of things like Project Settings > Recording > Audio Recording Path and Browser > Audio File menu > Move Files. These both let you cause the Project to create / refer to Audio Files that are located OUTSIDE the parent folder for the current Project or Package. This can be helpful but also dangerous as it can mean that the current Project refers to Audio Files that are NOT contained within the parent folder for the current Project, whether it's a Folder or a Package. Handy but potentially dangerous....

 

[aldous]

You can destructively delete un-needed audio files in a Project right from Logic's media browser [...] Control-Click + Show Package Contents on the Project file itself [...]

*taps mic* Is this thing on? Not disagreeing of course; just these are the first things we looked at.

The bulk of the OP's projects is in the project metadata itself: realistically, that probably means it's coming from one or more plugins saving out very large settings data.

 

[Soundhound]

I saved some channel strip settings and they were pretty small. The ones without plugins were 100k or less, the ones with maybe 400-500k. I don't have a lot of plugins in these projects yet. There are about 125 tracks in the project so that shouldn't add that much to the Project file size I 'd think?

Those sizes are all in megabytes, right? They seem large to me (about 10x the size of the BBCSO template). The majority of the space in ProjectData is used by plugin settings - at least, in the ones I've looked at properly - so I imagine there are some plugins taking a lot of space. It could be something else but I'd have to examine one of the ProjectData files to know for sure.

As an experiment you could save out a Logic channel preset (from the "Settings" menu on the channel strip) for a few tracks and see how large the resulting CST (channel settings) files are. Channel settings files are more-or-less the same format used to store per-track information in the Logic project file. So, if a track's preset saves out at 1MB, and you have 100 similar tracks, then that's a 100MB project right there.

 

[Soundhound]

I've been having issues with Sonarworks Reference ID (like the rest of the world) I went back to the rev they recommended something 7.2 I think, and it's still dicey but at least I can get work done. On loading a project it sticks for a long time before opening, and often it sticks while saying loading Sonarworks. Maybe this is the culprit?

Is there a way to see what specific plugin might be saving large data?

 

[Soundhound]

Thanks Charlie, I've been needing to up my audio browser game, which is pretty non-existent. How and when files actually get saved to disk is so opaque. But not any more, thanks to you. Saving this in my Charlie Clouser Guide To Sanity folder. Is there any audio that actually gets saved in the Project file itself maybe? Those are the files that seem to bloat like crazy.

 

[aldous]

There are about 125 tracks in the project so that shouldn't add that much to the Project file size I 'd think?

After yesterday's conversation, I realised I didn't have good data on an "average" project - just my own. So, I analysed a large collection of different ProjectData files (i.e. excluding audio, freeze files, etc) to find out:

• 75%-85% of the data was from plugins, mostly instruments, with orchestral projects tending more to 85%
• Kontakt was the plugin that took up the most space: all Kontakt instances used at least 1MB, some over 3MB. Other plugins, incl. BBCSO, were only saving about 200k per instance, or less.

This isn't totally scientific, but - still - I think it gives you an idea. If you had 100 Kontakt instances then that would soon add up (remember: disabled/hidden tracks take up just as much project-file space as enabled/visible tracks.)

Is there a way to see what specific plugin might be saving large data?

I have tools to do that but I'd need the ProjectData file. I'm not aware of anything you can run on your side; saving out the preset is probably the best way of checking a track once you have a suspicion. Perhaps that much smaller 77MB project alternative is a clue? What's missing from that but present in the others?

Is there any audio that actually gets saved in the Project file itself maybe? Those are the files that seem to bloat like crazy.

Logic won't, but plugins could potentially keep audio in their plugin data. Generally it'd be risky for them to do that unless pretty small, like Quick Sampler. (This is just samplers for user-supplied samples, BTW, not instruments in VIs like Kontakt.)

 

[MartinH.]

I don't use Logic, I use Reaper. It has the unfortunate quirk of roughly scaling project save times with project size in a very annoying way. From that I know that different Kontakt libraries will inflate the project size very differently. Some add around 2 or 3 mb, some add a whopping 10 mb per instance. So if you're trying to build a 1-articulation-per-track template with a library that adds 10 mb per instance, you're in for an annoying pause, when trying to save that file. I wonder if they improved that in v7, since that's something that I'd actually care about. The delay felt far longer than the hdd write speed limit, so I assume it has to do with converting the plugin states into the right data format.

the project file itself is 630mb. And it's fairly new, the result of a Save A Copy As. It has two at the most alternatives, it's a 60 second project using maybe 50-75? tracks. there might be another hundred tracks in there disabled. Seems really big for a project file for that?

Does "two alternatives" mean it saves 2 versions of the project in the same file? In that case your project file would basically be only ~315mb. Disabled tracks will take the same amount of memory, so it comes out at around ~2mb per track which seems totally normal. Maybe small even, compared to my experience with project files in Reaper.

I don't think it matters that you only have 60 seconds of music in that project file. It's the Kontakt instances that take up a lot of space. You could probably write 2 hours of midi in that project file without adding much to the filesize. But switching out your libraries for different ones might easily double the project size if they take up more space per instance. Even without any midi data at all and all tracks disabled.

 

[Soundhound]

After yesterday's conversation, I realised I didn't have good data on an "average" project - just my own. So, I analysed a large collection of different ProjectData files (i.e. excluding audio, freeze files, etc) to find out:

• 75%-85% of the data was from plugins, mostly instruments, with orchestral projects tending more to 85%
• Kontakt was the plugin that took up the most space: all Kontakt instances used at least 1MB, some over 3MB. Other plugins, incl. BBCSO, were only saving about 200k per instance, or less.

This isn't totally scientific, but - still - I think it gives you an idea. If you had 100 Kontakt instances then that would soon add up (remember: disabled/hidden tracks take up just as much project-file space as enabled/visible tracks.)


I have tools to do that but I'd need the ProjectData file. I'm not aware of anything you can run on your side; saving out the preset is probably the best way of checking a track once you have a suspicion. Perhaps that much smaller 77MB project alternative is a clue? What's missing from that but present in the others?


Logic won't, but plugins could potentially keep audio in their plugin data. Generally it'd be risky for them to do that unless pretty small, like Quick Sampler. (This is just samplers for user-supplied samples, BTW, not instruments in VIs like Kontakt.)

This sounds like Kontakt may be the cause. I tend to use it a lot and i bet there are a hundred instances here, though many unloaded so perhaps not that many.

I’d love to know if that’s the case. Maybe I could impose on you at some point to send you one of these Project-Data files to see what’s going on? I’m imagining i could attach it in a message in IM here on vi control…

 

[charlieclouser]

Does "two alternatives" mean it saves 2 versions of the project in the same file? In that case your project file would basically be only ~315mb. Disabled tracks will take the same amount of memory, so it comes out at around ~2mb per track which seems totally normal. Maybe small even, compared to my experience with project files in Reaper.

Yes, unfortunately for us Logic users, that is exactly what it means. A "Project Alternative" is a complete freakin' duplicate of the entire Project, minus the audio files, movie files, etc. Basically the entire Arrange window with all of its regions, instruments, plugins, automation, etc., but not the contents of the various sub-folders that you'd see if you save in Folder mode. I think many of us wish it was JUST a duplicate of the Arrange window (aka Main Window these days) without duplication of plugin settings etc, but I guess that's what Track Alternatives are for....

I don't think it matters that you only have 60 seconds of music in that project file. It's the Kontakt instances that take up a lot of space. You could probably write 2 hours of midi in that project file without adding much to the filesize. But switching out your libraries for different ones might easily double the project size if they take up more space per instance. Even without any midi data at all and all tracks disabled.

And yes, Kontakt's saved data can get quite piggy with some instruments, especially ones with super-complex UI like Sample Logic quad-zone + step sequencer type stuff where there are hundreds of parameters to be polled and saved. When you get a few dozen / hundred instances of those going, Logic's Project file sizes start to swell up quickly.