How important is location in this day and age?
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proggermusic
Keyboards and Woodwinds, Jazz-Funk-Ambient?
Unfortunately... this is true for literally every business in the world. Particularly industries or professions that are desired and commonly aspired to. There are more than enough good people out there, so it becomes much more about who knows you, who trusts you, and who enjoys working with you. Pick any creative industry and you'll find exactly the same situation.
Slovenia is a beautiful country but I'm sure it would be challenging to find work in the modern music world there. Doctoremmet's advice is very good, your immediate local community will be the best place to start, even if it isn't the community you wish it were.
In this age of ubiquitous internet, in-person face-time has become even more important than ever, which I know seems counter-intuitive. So, yes, location matters a ton right now. People who actually know you in person from the community are much more likely to connect you with work. And as folks have said, relocation isn't necessarily the answer: finding ways to spend time in the larger European or American cities could be worthwhile. I'm not sure what kind of modern music industry is happening in Vienna at the moment, but that could be a good place to start. (I'm a big fan of its microphones and recording studios, at least...)
nitrateaudio
Active Member
Location is important, but I don't know why you are so sure about that. Many companies go to eastern EU to save money on making music products (and other tech products). IIRC, there are a slew of sampled orchestral instruments where they did the recordings in Poland, Czech, and other places.
I meant like composing for films/games/tv of which there are none or at least none that are actually good
rgames
Collapsing the Wavefunction
The music business is, after all, a business. And success in business comes down to three factors:
1. Networking
2. Quantity
3. Luck
Note that 1 and 2 are the only ones you can control. Also note "quality" is not on the list.
Being at the same location certainly improves your success on the networking part. But the real key is networking, even if from a remote location. Unless you get lucky
rgames
1. Networking
2. Quantity
3. Luck
Note that 1 and 2 are the only ones you can control. Also note "quality" is not on the list.
Being at the same location certainly improves your success on the networking part. But the real key is networking, even if from a remote location. Unless you get lucky
rgames
NekujaK
I didn't go to film school, I went to films -QT
Is location important? Like with most things in life, it depends.
The one lasting benefit the COVID pandemic left us, is that it opened everyone's eyes to the possibilities of remote work, and composing music is definitely one of the jobs that can easily be done remotely. But as with just about any job, some initial personal outreach may be necessary to get the job in the first place. But it depends.
It depends on what you want to do with music. Some gigs, like film scoring, are highly dependent on personal connections, because making a film is a collaborative process and the director needs to feel confident that you share his/her vision and are a good fit for the project and are easy to work with. It's like a marriage, and you wouldn't want to enter into a marriage without first meeting and getting to know the other person, right?
To write music for video games, you could try to get a job at a video game company that supports remote work. I see job listings almost every week from video game companies looking for composers. Just watch for job listings and apply to those that allow remote work. You may have to fly out to interview in person, and if they like you, they might hire you and you can work from home.
If you really don't want to deal with people, there are still a few ways to try earning money with your music. You can compose music for production libraries and trailer houses, solicit non-exclusive publishers, and/or you can try to self-publish your music. All of these pursuits require little or no direct interaction with other humans and are almost entirely dependent on the quality of music you produce.
You should be aware that with the rapid rise of AI-generated music, it's the jobs that don't require any human interaction that will be cannibalized first, so money-making opportunities in those areas will gradually start to diminish. Our best protection against generative AI, are the gigs where the human element still plays a vital role.
And finally, as others have mentioned, the almightly LUCK factor can't be ignored. Every working musician I know has had their career propelled by luck at some point. I got signed to a label because I posted some music on YouTube just to share with my friends. 3 years later a label stumbled onto my videos, that I had forgotten about, and contacted me. Pure luck. But for luck to bump into you, you need to put yourself out there.
The internet and social media have made it possible to do many things without being dependent on physical location. You just need to look for the right opportunities and have an online presence.
The one lasting benefit the COVID pandemic left us, is that it opened everyone's eyes to the possibilities of remote work, and composing music is definitely one of the jobs that can easily be done remotely. But as with just about any job, some initial personal outreach may be necessary to get the job in the first place. But it depends.
It depends on what you want to do with music. Some gigs, like film scoring, are highly dependent on personal connections, because making a film is a collaborative process and the director needs to feel confident that you share his/her vision and are a good fit for the project and are easy to work with. It's like a marriage, and you wouldn't want to enter into a marriage without first meeting and getting to know the other person, right?
To write music for video games, you could try to get a job at a video game company that supports remote work. I see job listings almost every week from video game companies looking for composers. Just watch for job listings and apply to those that allow remote work. You may have to fly out to interview in person, and if they like you, they might hire you and you can work from home.
If you really don't want to deal with people, there are still a few ways to try earning money with your music. You can compose music for production libraries and trailer houses, solicit non-exclusive publishers, and/or you can try to self-publish your music. All of these pursuits require little or no direct interaction with other humans and are almost entirely dependent on the quality of music you produce.
You should be aware that with the rapid rise of AI-generated music, it's the jobs that don't require any human interaction that will be cannibalized first, so money-making opportunities in those areas will gradually start to diminish. Our best protection against generative AI, are the gigs where the human element still plays a vital role.
And finally, as others have mentioned, the almightly LUCK factor can't be ignored. Every working musician I know has had their career propelled by luck at some point. I got signed to a label because I posted some music on YouTube just to share with my friends. 3 years later a label stumbled onto my videos, that I had forgotten about, and contacted me. Pure luck. But for luck to bump into you, you need to put yourself out there.
The internet and social media have made it possible to do many things without being dependent on physical location. You just need to look for the right opportunities and have an online presence.
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The reason i got into music in the first place was artistic expression, I wanted to work on projects I consider to be artistic achievements that have some level of personal fulfillment. Doing commercials, sound libraries or the like is just soulless to me idk, would rather do something else if money is the only result
Where are these listings? Here on the forum?
doctoremmet
Senior Member
Whatever kind of work you aspire to do, I’ve found that -if you’re LUCKY- 33% of it is going to fulfill high level aspirations, 33% is going to be run of the mill stuff and 33% will be soulless. It just goes with the job. Any job. You get behind it and just get it done.
No famous extremely happy composer exists today that at some point hasn’t had to scramble for something stupid, that they would loved to have skipped because it was mindblowingly boring and utterly senseless to them. Yet they did what needed to be done. In fact my guess is, most people that did actually figured “hey, I’m in this place now, but let’s see how I can get over to those greener pastures over there”, while they performed some entirely senseless and non-artistic task, like running errands for someone higher on the ladder.
So I wouldn’t lament too much about there not being any unicorn composer positions that earn you money AND are entirely satisfying your every artistic expressive need, being thown in your lap. That’s just not a thing that generally happens to anybody. So no worries! It won’t happen to you either. So in THAT case, pick some other job that doesn’t appear soulless to you. Chances are they are easier to find and earn you more. And then in your spare time go make the ultimate tunes and pour your entire heart and soul in it. Problem solved.
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NekujaK
I didn't go to film school, I went to films -QT
Well, it sounds like you're choosing to live the life of a true creative artist. In that case, there are absolutely no guaranteed ways to earn a living with just art - whether it's painting, sculpting, music, etc.
I know many people who support their creative pursuits with "non-artistic" jobs that are still in their field. For example, I have a friend who is an excellent painter, but she can't make a living from selling her paintings, so she also works as an illustrator for an advertising company. I know professional musicians and composers who support their creative life by teaching music.
So you just might have to write some commerical music to support the creation of your symphonic masterworks! There are worse things in life.
Unless you're EXTREMELY lucky and EXTREMELY talented, it's highly unlikely that you'll be able to survive on creative art alone. Unfortunately, it's been that way through the ages.
Video game companies regularly post job openings on sites like these:
jbuhler
Senior Member
As everyone is saying, networks are important (in this industry as in any industry where you seek to forge a career rather than just hold a job).
Location can help foster stronger networks but it's not the only thing. There are plenty of folks who move, create a semblance of a network, and don't succeed. These days there are plenty of folks who are creating viable networks without moving. And then there are those who move, create a network, and then move to where they want to live while maintaining the network they put together.
Also this:
Location can help foster stronger networks but it's not the only thing. There are plenty of folks who move, create a semblance of a network, and don't succeed. These days there are plenty of folks who are creating viable networks without moving. And then there are those who move, create a network, and then move to where they want to live while maintaining the network they put together.
Also this:
The point I'd make with luck is that you do have to have the skills to be able to seize an opportunity when it presents itself; that is, you have to be able to deliver.
HCMarkus
TL;DR
I would avoid this business if that is how you see music in these realms. Believe it or not, people creating commercial and library music are doing art, too. It is only soulless if they don't put their heart into the work.
Creative work is by its very nature, subjective. In general, people want to work with others who are positive, supportive, team-oriented and reliable. Since the measure of artistic ability is largely a matter of opinion, a candidate's attitude is extremely important when hiring decisions are being made.
Vik
Vi-k
Of course quality plays a role as well.
NekujaK
I didn't go to film school, I went to films -QT
Quality is subjective. What one person likes, another will think is garbage. There's no objective measure of quality that can be relied on.
As long as you can meet a fairly low bar of passable competence, the other factors of networking and luck become far more important in determining if you get work.
The most talented and gifted composers don't necessarily get the most prestigious jobs, while hack composers who know nothing about formal composition and only sequence loops and samples, can get hired to score AAA films.
It's not about quality - it's about being in the right place at the right time, connecting with the right people, and having luck smile down on you.
Yeah that was exactly my point as well, at a certain point of musical "decency" the quality in terms of business becomes irrelevant
Geoff Grace
Senior Member
I’ve worked as a musician for decades—from bar bands to the top echelons of the recording industry and from majoring in composition to having my work placed repeatedly in film and television. I’m saying this not to brag, as I would describe my level of success as only above average; but I’ve had a unique vantage point to witness how successful people approach their careers, as well as seeing what people who don’t go far fail to do. I’ll also add that there are ways to break in now that I’ve never tried, because I’m already established; so I’m still missing part of the picture, despite my many years of having worked as a musician.
I’ll start by saying that my career didn’t take off until after I moved to Los Angeles. I spent my early years touring the bar circuit in the southwestern US, mostly playing cover tunes and writing “originals” for the bands I played in. Some of the people I worked with at that point were very talented, but few were as driven as I was. To give just one example, my bandmates went fishing while I wrote music during our free time. I knew a lot of bar band musicians at the local level; but only a handful of us took the risk of moving to LA, and only two of us stayed in LA long-term. Of those two, both of us wound up working for Michael Jackson.
Michael Jackson is a great example of someone who didn’t come from privilege who became extremely successful. When asked to share his secret for success, he famously said, “Work like there’s no tomorrow.” I got to witness that commitment firsthand; and as much as I was more driven than the people I had formerly worked with, he was more driven than I was. I wound up working harder at that point, in support of MJ and other recording artists, than I ever had when I was an aspiring recording artist. I typically slept three or four hours a night and had virtually no personal life. I eventually burned out after years of working this way; but now, I’ve created a better life/work balance writing music libraries and doing other music related work. I no longer have that level of career success; but I’m still alive, and I’m happy.
In short, your level of success in this business is at least in part dependent on your level of commitment; and that commitment may (or may not) require relocating or traveling. I know a successful publisher who isn’t based out of a major music hub but who travels to LA, New York, and London, periodically. It can be done without relocating.
I’ll add that of all the successful people I’ve known, not one of them had a “can’t do” philosophy. They all thought they would succeed, despite the odds. I’m not saying that attitude alone will guarantee success; there are plenty of people I know who thought they’d succeed but didn’t get far. Nonetheless, it seems to be one of the crucial factors in success.
As for being an artist, there are ways to fit art into being a professional musician; but it’s always going to be more about commerce than art. Being a professional musician means doing the kinds of music that pay. If you enjoy that, then you’re in the right place; but if you don’t, then my advice would be to find a more stable career and create your art with every spare moment you can manage. Charles Ives had a career in insurance and was also a prominent composer. I can think of worse choices to make.
Best,
Geoff
I’ll start by saying that my career didn’t take off until after I moved to Los Angeles. I spent my early years touring the bar circuit in the southwestern US, mostly playing cover tunes and writing “originals” for the bands I played in. Some of the people I worked with at that point were very talented, but few were as driven as I was. To give just one example, my bandmates went fishing while I wrote music during our free time. I knew a lot of bar band musicians at the local level; but only a handful of us took the risk of moving to LA, and only two of us stayed in LA long-term. Of those two, both of us wound up working for Michael Jackson.
Michael Jackson is a great example of someone who didn’t come from privilege who became extremely successful. When asked to share his secret for success, he famously said, “Work like there’s no tomorrow.” I got to witness that commitment firsthand; and as much as I was more driven than the people I had formerly worked with, he was more driven than I was. I wound up working harder at that point, in support of MJ and other recording artists, than I ever had when I was an aspiring recording artist. I typically slept three or four hours a night and had virtually no personal life. I eventually burned out after years of working this way; but now, I’ve created a better life/work balance writing music libraries and doing other music related work. I no longer have that level of career success; but I’m still alive, and I’m happy.
In short, your level of success in this business is at least in part dependent on your level of commitment; and that commitment may (or may not) require relocating or traveling. I know a successful publisher who isn’t based out of a major music hub but who travels to LA, New York, and London, periodically. It can be done without relocating.
I’ll add that of all the successful people I’ve known, not one of them had a “can’t do” philosophy. They all thought they would succeed, despite the odds. I’m not saying that attitude alone will guarantee success; there are plenty of people I know who thought they’d succeed but didn’t get far. Nonetheless, it seems to be one of the crucial factors in success.
As for being an artist, there are ways to fit art into being a professional musician; but it’s always going to be more about commerce than art. Being a professional musician means doing the kinds of music that pay. If you enjoy that, then you’re in the right place; but if you don’t, then my advice would be to find a more stable career and create your art with every spare moment you can manage. Charles Ives had a career in insurance and was also a prominent composer. I can think of worse choices to make.
Best,
Geoff
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Vik
Vi-k
With all due respect: what someone happens to like ("taste") is very different from 'quality'. If you are served a pizza and you don't like it, it's about taste – but if the pizza business across the street sells you a pizza which is partially burnt, it is delivered too cold, the mushrooms taste rather funky, the room is noisy and the glass you drink from isn't really clean, it has nothing to do with taste.
I can't think of any business which can't, in an objective way, be described with different levels of 'quality' – in lots of areas per business.
So – the scale pretty much have two levels only – either 'OK' or below 'a fairly low bar of passable competence'? Those who have read or written in depth reviews of.... anything know that there are loads of parameters which evaluate how good or recommendable a 'product' is.
Sure. But that doesn't mean that if someone needs half an hour of music for a movie and they evaluate contributions from, say, 10 different meda composers, the quality of that listening experience will differ a lot.
NekujaK
I didn't go to film school, I went to films -QT
We're talking about art in this thread, which affects people on an emotional level, so there's no clear method of defining objective quality like there is in determining if a pizza is burnt or not.
As a crude example... by most measures of quality, Bob Dylan is an absolutely dreadful singer. The same can be said of Tom Waits and Mick Jagger. Yet, they all have massively successful careers as performing singers. It's not objective singing quality, or lack thereof, that defines their success, but their ability to connect with an audience and move people with their music on an emotional level.
Again, we're talking about music creation here. If you're competing with another composer to land a film scoring job, as long as you can create listenable music, the decision of who gets the job is going to come down to who the director feels is right for the job based on a bunch of factors that have nothing to do with musical quality - most director's couldn't evaluate musical quality anyway. The fact that you can create music is simply a given.
I'm a mediocre composer at best, yet I've been hired to score feature films and have hundreds of placements on TV and commercials. There are literally thousands of composers far more talented than me, but it doesn't matter. Once you achieve a certain minimum level of competence, it's just a matter of how your music affects people.
Exactly - the quality of the listening experience - as opposed to some objective measure of the quality of the music itself. It's all about people's personal reactions to music, or any art form.
Quality is in the eye of the beholder, not a list of boxes that can be checked. I don't understand Picasso, I think his paintings look like kindergarten drawings, and I certainly wouldn't spend money on them, but there are numerous others who gladly spend millions on his paintings and have a deep appreciation of his art.
So what does that say about the quality of Picasso's paintings? Nothing. But it says a lot about how artistic quality means different things to different people.
Vik
Vi-k
rgames, we agree that 'taste' exists, but I'm still talking about all the other aspects of running a business. It's obvious that taste exists, nobody would deny that. But I've spent hundreds of hours evaluating music, telling myself (since this was a job and I needed to be as 'objective' as possible') to not let my own taste/personal, current musical preferences run that 'business' for me. It was a really interesting process.
But, according to you:
I could list, say, 20 different aspects (not including taste) which would influence me if I weren't a composer, but someone looking for a composer – 'parameters' which would be essential for someone who would consider, me, you, the OP or someone else as a person to invest time and money in for future projects.. like eg. ability to deliver in time, timing accuracy, the ability to mix/master what s/he deliver, degree of harmonic / melodic / harmonic variety, whether their main inspiration is Bob Dylan or not, use of worn out cliches vs. originality, how they perform under pressure, if they will deliver several suggestion to choose between or not, how stubborn they are and so forth.
If you really think that quality never counts, in any business, happy journey! I disagree in that statement so much that I won't argue more against it.
But, according to you:
I could list, say, 20 different aspects (not including taste) which would influence me if I weren't a composer, but someone looking for a composer – 'parameters' which would be essential for someone who would consider, me, you, the OP or someone else as a person to invest time and money in for future projects.. like eg. ability to deliver in time, timing accuracy, the ability to mix/master what s/he deliver, degree of harmonic / melodic / harmonic variety, whether their main inspiration is Bob Dylan or not, use of worn out cliches vs. originality, how they perform under pressure, if they will deliver several suggestion to choose between or not, how stubborn they are and so forth.
If you really think that quality never counts, in any business, happy journey! I disagree in that statement so much that I won't argue more against it.
Jeremy Spencer
Senior Member
Ha ha! I’m a Canadian, it’s a lot bigger than you think.
