Global Warming in 5 Minutes

[noiseboyuk]

Cool, Rohan, except (again):

The 97% was from a peer reviewed study, it's not a petition. VERY big difference. And even if out of OISM it is 5%, that total out of a possible 10 million proves very little / nothing. Hence why I agree that dropping it from here-on-in is a good way forward!

Needless to say, Sceptical science covers how I see the cosmic ray thing pretty well... seems kinda old and lacking in evidence right now, but I'll keep my eyes open for new stuff as it comes out of Svensmark's camp.

 

[stevenson-again]

Needless to say, Sceptical science covers how I see the cosmic ray thing pretty well... seems kinda old and lacking in evidence right now, but I'll keep my eyes open for new stuff as it comes out of Svensmark's camp.

at the risk of opening another can of worms...

i have been looking into this - or should i say, retracing some steps i took some years ago when my head was being turned.

this dude:

https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/s ... clnk&gl=uk

(broken link removed)

is really the father of the theory and famously forecast several major climatic events before they happened. he has 5 peer reviewed articles on this subject which has been around for a long while. he has clearly invested his lifes work into understanding the impact of orbital fluctuations and solar weather, and appears to be very disgruntled that the IPCC simply disregarded that work in creating the models that predicted climate change. the reason they did was because they only looked at radiance, ie how brightly the sun shines, but they did not take into account cosmic radiation (which is actually a misnomer - they are just high energy particles such as cause the aurora borealis etc).

it appears likely that svensmark has made some mistakes in some of his approach - i don't know i haven't looked at it closely, but that doesn't mean to say that the hypothesis is wrong. at least experimentally there is support for the hypothesis, because they have been able to replicate the effect in laboratories.

i should add too that svensmark is not the only game in town looking into this stuff.

certainly landsheidts work merits further investigation, but i have to say it is VERY technical. i think the best thing is to put my top man in charge understanding it.

what is clear, is that his track record includes very accurate predictions of weather events on earth AND on the sun, and predicts the 2030 cooling (i glossed over some articles suggesting that figure might now be late) and significant cooling in 2200 - ie a mini ice age.

please don't poo-poo this. this guy regularly out-forecast NOAA with lead times as much 2 years. ie he could tell when a el nino or a la nina event might occur that far ahead.

just read this:

https://www.john-daly.com/sun-enso/revisit.htm

scan through to the end and skip the technical stuff. by god it is fascinating.

btw...

i think the skeptical science site is excellent. i think the tone is sober and it seems to be a place where the debate sticks to arguing over the science. the author is wrong about a number of things, which is pointed out by posters, some of whom seem extremely well informed. but this has become my number one place to find rebutalls and discussions.

 

[Animus]

Certainly an interesting development..... https://wattsupwiththat.com/2010/10/08/h ... l-society/

Cue up AGWers claiming Hal Lewis is not a real scientist and is in big oils pockets etc....


(broken link removed)

Hal Lewis of the University of California, Santa Barbara:

I think it behooves us to be careful about how we state the science. I know of nobody who denies that the Earth has been warming for thousands of years without our help (and specifically since the Little Ice Age a few hundred years ago), and is most likely to continue to do so in its own sweet time. The important question is how much warming does the future hold, is it good or bad, and if bad is it too much for normal adaptation to handle. The real answer to the first is that no one knows, the real answer to the second is more likely good than bad (people and plants die from cold, not warmth), and the answer to the third is almost certainly not. And nobody doubts that CO2 in the atmosphere has been increasing for the better part of a century, but the disobedient temperature seems not to care very much. And nobody denies that CO2 is a greenhouse gas, along with other gases like water vapor, but despite the claims of those who are profiting by this craze, no one knows whether the temperature affects the CO2 or vice versa. The weight of the evidence is the former.

So the tragedy is that the serious questions are quantitative, and it's easy to fool people with slogans. If you say that the Earth is warming you are telling the truth, but not the whole truth, and if you say it is due to the burning of fossil fuels you are on thin ice. If you say that the Earth is warming and therefore catastrophe lies ahead, you are pulling an ordinary bait and switch scam. If you are a demagogue, of course, these distinctions don't bother you -- you have little interest in that quaint concept called truth.

So it isn't simple, and the catastrophe mongers are playing a very lucrative
game.

Seems to be a lot of demagoguery on this very thread.

 

[Animus]

How can the whole be seen by a world of specialists, especially if , as some suggest, only a specialist has the authority to talk about that particular field.

Who, in that world view, has the authority of knowledge to create the whole from the parts?

Furthermore, these "specialists" the Global Warming truthers place their faith on so much all have educational backgrounds not in "climatology" per se, but from a various different disciplines, including chemistry, mathematics, physics, meteorology, geology. But it's a bad thing if the "deniers" are. lol

 

[Stephen Baysted]

I'd be careful what you say Animus, you might get blown up by the 10:10 mob...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3tTGqIH ... re=related

 

[Ed]

Certainly an interesting development..... https://wattsupwiththat.com/2010/10/08/h ... l-society/

Cue up AGWers claiming Hal Lewis is not a real scientist and is in big oils pockets etc....

The following is not at all exhaustive.

Intelligent Design Creationism advocates:

Jonathan Wells, PhD in Molecular and Cell Biology
Michael Behe, PhD in Biochemistry
Edward D. Lozansky, PhD in Theoretical and Mathematical Physics
Richard Sternberg, PhD in Molecular Evolution and Systems Science
Stephen C. Meyer, PhD. in the History and Philosophy of Science
Scott Minnich, PhD in Microbiology
Guillermo Gonzalez Ph.D. in Astronomy


911 Truth advocates boast over 1,330 professional architects and engineers support them. They will argue, just like Global Warming "skeptics", that this figure represents a lot of dissent in the engineering/scientific community and they have been gathering signatures for years and from all over the world. One should note however that there are around 17,000 newly credential engineers every year just in the US alone and AE911Truth also includes architects and software engineers in their list. Here are a few names...

"911 Truth" Conspiracy Theory advocates:

Steven E. Jones, Ph.D. in Physics
Anders Björkman, M.Sc Naval architect & Marine engineer
Judy Wood, Ph.D Mechanical Engineering
Tony Szambot, Mechanical Engineer
Dr. Robert T. Mote, PhD in Structural Engineer
Edwin L. Force, PhD in Chemical Engineering
Henry W. Tieleman, PhD in Civil Engineering
Mark Allen, PhD, Engineering


As someone on that (broken link removed) you posted, said:

"Climate change deniers trumpet the fact that 230 physicists have signed a petition opposing the American Physical Society (APS) statement on climate change. The APS has over 46,000 members and the petition was written in 2007. So, in the past two years, fewer than 1% of the physicists have signed. Only committed climate change deniers could call that a victory "

I'd also like to point out that reading Watts Up With That, is like reading Alex Jones' Prison Planet or InfoWars.

I think the main point in all of this is that if you're going to argue from authority, then "skeptics" still loose.

 

[Animus]

I'd be careful what you say Animus, you might get blown up by the 10:10 mob...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3tTGqIH ... re=related

haha! Nice one. it certainly feels like the Spanish Inquisition.

 

[Ed]

Even though i expected this type of reply you missed one of the whole points of what Hal Lewis speaks of.

Firstly, he says absolutely nothing new just throws out a few typical "skeptic" canards. Second, all you have left is his qualifications and as I said I can show you 911 Truthers and Creationists with qualifications as well. The point being that percentage wise they are still very much fringe, see the paragraph I quoted at the end of my post. Sums things up quite nicely I think. If you're going to argue from authority you're always going to loose.

The whole scientific process has be usurped by political and financial mechanization, and a system setup which discourages any dissenting or diverging opinions to even get peer reviewed, and intimidates people into submission

Yes yes, I've heard all this before. Its the same thing Creationists have been complaining about for donkeys years and its what the truth movement have been crying about for nearly a decade. Forgive me if I find it all rather dull hearing the exact same conspiracy accusations by fringe groups promoting different claims. Seriously, its practically identical.

It's cherrypicking only the results you want and throwing out any other undesirable results before it even gets a chance to be judged on its on merits.

What I find interesting is that GW "skeptics", 911 Truthers and Creationists (and so on...) act like they care such a lot about truth, honesty and facts but apparently seem to care not one whit about any of the blatent and numerous examples of gross incompetence, lies and outright fraud from their own groups and experts.

Climategate has totally blown the credibility of your respectable scientists, and has shown them maliciously and willfully subverting the scientific process.

As usual for conspiracy theorists like GW "skeptics" they typically rely mostly on quote-mines. Its really not smart or clever, but its so easy to do, isn't it? Creationists are the best at it though and have been doing it for over a hundred years, they actually have a far better case to make for scientific fraud in evolution science than GW "skeptics" ever had.

You guys still refuse to admit that but a lot of people have seen the light and the tide is turning.

I can't tell you how many times I've heard 911 Truthers claim that more and more people are "waking up" after some new thing becomes the latest "bombshell" evidence that will validate their conspiracy theories. Or Creationsits which have been predicting the "imminent" demise of evolution for over a hundred years. Save it, please. I've heard it all before. In the end it either makes a group all excited over absolutely nothing (1330 "experts" signing their 911 petition) or commit fraud and deception with the GW "skeptics" Petition Project in order to make it look like there's way more scientific dissent on the subject than there actually is. But this goes back to what I said earlier, strangely none of you guys seem to care about that.

I'd also like to add in the fact that one of the main architects of cap and trade legislation is a person that works for Goldman Sachs. That should tell you a lot.

I do wonder if you could explain, since all other GW "skeptics" have refused to, how this "cap and trade" business apparently brings in so much money for everyone that it reduces all but a tiny fringe minority in the scientific community to incompetence and stupidity and just go along with this conspiracy of yours?

 

[Animus]

lol Typical liberal tactic of smearing. What the hell does Creationism or Truthers have to do with it? Believing in AGW has more relevance to Creationism than not believing it if anything. Temperature drives CO2, not the other way around. This used to be scientific fact before you loonies became Nurse Ratchet of the asylum.

I am card carrying atheist and I am not a truther or a birther or what ever other labels you people like to use to divert the subject.

 

[Ed]

lWhat the hell does Creationism or Truthers have to do with it?

I just told you. You all use the exact same general arguments, its boring.

Believing in AGW has more relevance to Creationism than not believing it if anything.

How do you figure that? GW Deniers quote mine, they shamelessly and obviously and demonstrably lie about the data, they create fake petitions, they pretend there is a real scientific debate when there isn't... you yourself just complained that the scientific process is being controlled by some other interest that don't allow your GW "skeptics" a go in the sand pit, you also say that "the tide is turning" because more people are "seeing the light" both things that Creationists have been saying for decades. So that sounds just like a Creationist to me, or a truther for that matter. Trusting a small fringe minority while implicating the rest of the scientific community in either mass incompetence, delusion or a global intentional coverup which is both ridiculous and absurd but for some reason that doesn't seem to cross your minds.

Temperature drives CO2, not the other way around.

No evidence for that only data manipulation, of course.

This used to be scientific fact before you loonies became Nurse Ratchet of the asylum.

So you're claiming that Co2 doesn't affect temperature? That's like the Young Earth Creationist version of a Global Warming denier.

I am card carrying atheist and I am not a truther

So? Plenty of truther's are atheists. Ever heard of the film Zeitgeist?

or a birther or what ever other labels you people like to use to divert the subject.

Never said you were, can you really not see why I am comparing this? Maybe you just don't want to, its pretty simple. Creationists, truthers, moon hoaxers, JFK, Freeman on the Land, homeopaths - whatever. They all have very similar ways of arguing.

You seem to have missed my question though, I had hoped you would do what no other GW Denier has ever done before and provide an actual answer to it:

I do wonder if you could explain, since all other GW "skeptics" have refused to, how this "cap and trade" business apparently brings in so much money for everyone that it reduces all but a tiny fringe minority in the scientific community to incompetence and stupidity and just go along with this conspiracy of yours?

 

[Animus]

Your exact Creationist arguments can be turned back on to you as well. It's a silly way to debate.

Anyway, just remember this and think about it years from now when you are undeniably proven wrong, make sure to button up and keep warm though. The tides have already started to turn, and the desperation is already starting to show. It's impossible to argue with you people. It's like arguing with Creationists. You keep worshiping your spaghetti monster.

 

[Ed]

Your exact Creationist arguments can be turned back on to you as well. It's a silly way to debate.

I dare you to try and do that, simply saying "you too!" may sound like an easy retort but not when you actually have to back it up. I can actually back up everything I said to you, would you be able to?

I had a truther only the other day tell me I am not giving any evidence for my points against his 911 conspiracy theories, apparently he thinks he can just really, really, really disagree and that's enough.

Anyway, just remember this and think about it years from now when you are undeniably proven wrong, make sure to button up and keep warm though. The tides have already started to turn, and the desperation is already starting to show.

*yawn*

The Imminent Demise of Evolution: The Longest Running Falsehood in Creationism
(broken link removed)

"Till within a few years, these two [Neptunism and Huttonism] have been the prevailing system; but another has lately appeared which seems likely, I think, to supercede them: it is called by Mr. Granville Penn, who is its great champion, the MOSAIC GEOLOGY, because it is chiefly derived from the Mosaic History of the Creation and the Deluge."
- Granville Penn, Conversations on Geology, (London: J. W. Southgate and Son, 1840), p. 38

"…I am convinced that science is making substantial progress. Darwinism has been definitely outgrown. As a doctrine it is merely of historical interest.
- George McCready Price, quoted in Alexander Hardie’s Evolution: Is It Philosophical, Scientific Or Scriptural? (1924), pp.125-126 Taken from Troy Britain's reply at https://www.talkorigins.org/origins/feedback/jul02.html

"In spite of the tremendous pressure that exists in the scientific world on the side of evolutionary propaganda, there are increasing signs of discontent and skepticism"
- Henry Morris, The Twilight of Evolution, (Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, 1963), p. 84

"But even at that time there were some evolutionists who were beginning to express doubts concerning this formulation of evolution theory. A decade later, these incipient cracks have widened to the point that some, formerly strongly committed to this theory, are now expressing disillusionment." Duane T. Gish, "Cracks in the NeoDarwinian Jericho, Part 1," Impact, 42(Dec. 1976). https://www.icr.org/pubs/imp/imp-042.htm

"Creation scientists may be in the minority so far, but their number is growing, and most of them (like this writer) were evolutionists at one time, having changed to creationism at least in part because of what they decided was the weight of scientific evidence."
- Henry Morris, "What are Evolutionists Afraid of?" Back to Genesis, No. 168(Dec. 2002).

It's impossible to argue with you people. It's like arguing with Creationists. You keep worshiping your spaghetti monster.

Cute, but its just word salad you think sounds smart.

I asked you a direct question, my only direct question twice now. I told you no denialist has ever answered it, in fact no one has ever even acknowledged it as far as I recall and look, you too have ignored it as well. I'm going to ask you again, just to show that you simply refuse to address such a simple issue.

I do wonder if you could explain, since all other GW "skeptics" have refused to, how this "cap and trade" business apparently brings in so much money for everyone that it reduces all but a tiny fringe minority in the scientific community to incompetence and stupidity and just go along with this conspiracy of yours?

Bottom line is, you guys are raving conspiracy theorists in order to believe this nonsense, but you hate people suggesting you are promoting conspiracy theories so you try very hard to ignore difficult questions like this.

 

[Animus]

Ed,

Are you familiar with the Holocene Maximum and the Medieval Warming Period?

 

[Ed]

Ed,

Are you familiar with the Holocene Maximum and the Medieval Warming Period?

:lol: How about we can talk about that particular denier debacle - again - after you answer my question.

For the 4th time:

I do wonder if you could explain, since all other GW "skeptics" have refused to, how this "cap and trade" business apparently brings in so much money for everyone that it reduces all but a tiny fringe minority in the scientific community to incompetence and stupidity and just go along with this conspiracy of yours?

 

[Animus]

Your exact Creationist arguments can be turned back on to you as well. It's a silly way to debate.

I dare you to try and do that, simply saying "you too!" may sound like an easy retort but not when you actually have to back it up. I can actually back up everything I said to you, would you be able to?

I had a truther only the other day tell me I am not giving any evidence for my points against his 911 conspiracy theories, apparently he thinks he can just really, really, really disagree and that's enough.

Anyway, just remember this and think about it years from now when you are undeniably proven wrong, make sure to button up and keep warm though. The tides have already started to turn, and the desperation is already starting to show.

*yawn*

The Imminent Demise of Evolution: The Longest Running Falsehood in Creationism
(broken link removed)

"Till within a few years, these two [Neptunism and Huttonism] have been the prevailing system; but another has lately appeared which seems likely, I think, to supercede them: it is called by Mr. Granville Penn, who is its great champion, the MOSAIC GEOLOGY, because it is chiefly derived from the Mosaic History of the Creation and the Deluge."
- Granville Penn, Conversations on Geology, (London: J. W. Southgate and Son, 1840), p. 38

"…I am convinced that science is making substantial progress. Darwinism has been definitely outgrown. As a doctrine it is merely of historical interest.
- George McCready Price, quoted in Alexander Hardie’s Evolution: Is It Philosophical, Scientific Or Scriptural? (1924), pp.125-126 Taken from Troy Britain's reply at https://www.talkorigins.org/origins/feedback/jul02.html

"In spite of the tremendous pressure that exists in the scientific world on the side of evolutionary propaganda, there are increasing signs of discontent and skepticism"
- Henry Morris, The Twilight of Evolution, (Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, 1963), p. 84

"But even at that time there were some evolutionists who were beginning to express doubts concerning this formulation of evolution theory. A decade later, these incipient cracks have widened to the point that some, formerly strongly committed to this theory, are now expressing disillusionment." Duane T. Gish, "Cracks in the NeoDarwinian Jericho, Part 1," Impact, 42(Dec. 1976). https://www.icr.org/pubs/imp/imp-042.htm

"Creation scientists may be in the minority so far, but their number is growing, and most of them (like this writer) were evolutionists at one time, having changed to creationism at least in part because of what they decided was the weight of scientific evidence."
- Henry Morris, "What are Evolutionists Afraid of?" Back to Genesis, No. 168(Dec. 2002).

It's impossible to argue with you people. It's like arguing with Creationists. You keep worshiping your spaghetti monster.

Cute, but its just word salad you think sounds smart.

I asked you a direct question, my only direct question twice now. I told you no denialist has ever answered it, in fact no one has ever even acknowledged it as far as I recall and look, you too have ignored it as well. I'm going to ask you again, just to show that you simply refuse to address such a simple issue.

I do wonder if you could explain, since all other GW "skeptics" have refused to, how this "cap and trade" business apparently brings in so much money for everyone that it reduces all but a tiny fringe minority in the scientific community to incompetence and stupidity and just go along with this conspiracy of yours?

Bottom line is, you guys are raving conspiracy theorists in order to believe this nonsense, but you hate people suggesting you are promoting conspiracy theories so you try very hard to ignore difficult questions like this.

You haven't backed up your arguments with any substantive either other than to pull the whole smearing the opponent with negative and unrelated associations, and also the whole "I only listen to prescreeened peer-reviewed scientist, no other scientist counts, and only go to liberal approved websites" argument. Your arguments of the scientists who are Creationist and Truthers is laughable and illogical because it discredits scientists in general, and can be used in argument against your scientist too. Mind you these are the same respected scientist that warned of global cooling in the 1970's.

So I might also say I am a Creationist then you of course discount what I say. Then I might say I am an atheist then you counter with "well, scientists who are conspiracy theorist can be atheist too so you are discredited". lol get the fuck out of here dude. you can't be serious.

I can write a whole page on cap and trade so let me get back to you when it's not so late, some people have to get up in the morning and go to work to pay for all your entitlement programs. It's not difficult at all and has been discussed to death on other forums. But in the meantime please research the success it has been over in Europe and then read about all the scams and corruption. Basically all cap and trade will do in the long run is make everything a hell of lot more expensive for the middle class and poor (something I thought you liberals cared about). Companies will just trade these carbon credits and build a huge bubble and pass on all losses and risks to the customers and taxpayer and rake in profits for themselves. All the while, it will do nothing to curb global warming even if such a thing would be possible. Corporations like GE and BP totally support cap and trade and are counting on it.

 

[Ed]

You haven't backed up your arguments with any substantive either other than to pull the whole smearing the opponent with negative and unrelated associations, and also the whole "I only listen to prescreeened peer-reviewed scientist, no other scientist counts, and only go to liberal approved websites" argument.

Stop complaining and deal with the fact that you are making the exact same arguments Creationists and 911 conspiracy theorists make, if they are wrong for doing it so are you.

Your arguments of the scientists who are Creationist and Truthers is laughable and illogical because it discredits scientists in general, and can be used in argument against your scientist too. Mind you these are the same respected scientist that warned of global cooling in the 1970's.

What on earth are you talking about? Are you suggesting that those Creationists talking about how evolution is on its last legs were also "respected scientists that warned of global cooling in the 1970's"? You really sure about that? :|

So I might also say I am a Creationist then you of course discount what I say.

Not necessarily if you were I would just know how you deal with science, that is to say badly. Since Creationists are usually wrong about damn near everything, I will be biased to thinking that you probably would be as well.

Then I might say I am an atheist then you counter with "well, scientists who are conspiracy theorist can be atheist too so you are discredited". lol get the f#@k out of here dude. you can't be serious.

... There's no suitable smiley. wtf are you talking about? I don't care if you're an atheist or a Christian. YOU are promoting conspiracy theories and YOU are promoting the same tired old complaints about the scientific process and community that all fringe groups do. That's not my fault.

I can write a whole page on cap and trade so let me get back to you when it's not so late, some people have to get up in the morning and go to work to pay for all your entitlement programs.

It's not difficult at all and has been discussed to death on other forums. But in the meantime please research the success it has been over in Europe and then read about all the scams and corruption. Basically all cap and trade will do in the long run is make everything a hell of lot more expensive for the middle class and poor (something I thought you liberals cared about). Companies will just trade these carbon credits and build a huge bubble and pass on all losses and risks to the customers and taxpayer and rake in profits for themselves. All the while, it will do nothing to curb global warming even if such a thing would be possible. Corporations like GE and BP totally support cap and trade and are counting on it.

Yes yes I know all that, please address my point. You may have to actually read it rather than knee jerk as soon as you saw a question about cap and trade.

My question is regarding HOW this cap and trade is somehow so lucrative that it can not only be more profitable than oil but also turn all but a small, fringe minority in the scientific community into stupid, incompetent tools for this corporate/government conspiracy, all over the world, when the truth is so simple that unqualified people on the internet can easily understand it?

 

[chimuelo]

I can answer that and have several times here, but most folks prefer to just Parrot on for their particular cause.
The CME Bank is where the elite ruling class have all placed their bets.
Its board members are a testament to why this bill will pass.
Its out of our hands at this point.

Our tax dollars have set up huge grants that have corrupted the " scientific " research and turned NASA into a Climatology Conglamorate instead of the worlds leading Space exploration facility.

Since our leaders have been corrupted by the process, this giant political machine will never be dismantled.
We have allowed our ruling class to transfer the wealth of the middle class to China to ensure they prefer economic strength over military strength. This was wise to avert a future war as the 2 biggest kids on the block always end up having to square off.

As we speak more and more corporations and industries will relocate to China instead of the USA as our leaders continue to push legislation that favors China in trade. We cannot sell our products there, but their products flood our markets through the CHinese owned port of Long Beach.
These are the crimes that most of us are unaware of as we are distracted by the medias' left and right puppet wars, and divisive race strategies.

I have passed up so many gigs in China, but while my pay here decreases year by year, the enticing pay scale in China has tripled since 2004.
As a contactor I do OK here, but in CHina, I would make 6-700 USD per night as opposed to the 250 USD I make here, which I am severely punished and taxed on too. I provide the insurances necessary to protect myself from lawsuits, where in China, they have no such restrictions.

The bottom line.
The whores in DC have succeeded in ruining the middle class here in the USA, since they are all wealthy, this doesn't bother them much.
So when you hear these liars targeting the wealthy Americans during one of their class warfare speeches, try and remain focused, as they are never going to tax themselves.

Cap & Trade is coming to a town near you.
I hope you like it deep....

 

[Ed]

The CME Bank is where the elite ruling class have all placed their bets.

Oh dear.. I don't think this is going to go well.. :roll:

Our tax dollars have set up huge grants that have corrupted the " scientific " research and turned NASA into a Climatology Conglamorate instead of the worlds leading Space exploration facility.

Yes I know you believe in a conspiracy, I was looking for how you think its possible to turn all but a few fringe scientists into a bunch of bumbling incompetent morons and the rest into shills for this corporate conspiracy... but maybe you're getting to it, further on...

Since our leaders have been corrupted by the process, this giant political machine will never be dismantled.
We have allowed our ruling class to transfer the wealth of the middle class to China to ensure they prefer economic strength over military strength. This was wise to avert a future war as the 2 biggest kids on the block always end up having to square off.

All I got from this was, "conspiracy to controlz us by the evil rich bankers!".

Not sure how that relates to my question though.

The bottom line.
The whores in DC have succeeded in ruining the middle class here in the USA, since they are all wealthy, this doesn't bother them much.
So when you hear these liars targeting the wealthy Americans during one of their class warfare speeches, try and remain focused, as they are never going to tax themselves.

Cap & Trade is coming to a town near you.
I hope you like it deep....

I have absolutely no idea how you think this in any way whatsoever answers my question.

Will any GW "skeptic" even show they understand the question?

Again:

My question is regarding HOW this cap and trade is somehow SO lucrative that it can not only be more profitable than oil but also turn all but a small, fringe minority in the scientific community into stupid, incompetent tools for this corporate/government conspiracy, all over the world, when the truth is so simple that unqualified people on the internet can easily understand it?

 

[Animus]

The CME Bank is where the elite ruling class have all placed their bets.

Oh dear.. I don't think this is going to go well.. :roll:

Our tax dollars have set up huge grants that have corrupted the " scientific " research and turned NASA into a Climatology Conglamorate instead of the worlds leading Space exploration facility.

Yes I know you believe in a conspiracy, I was looking for how you think its possible to turn all but a few fringe scientists into a bunch of bumbling incompetent morons and the rest into shills for this corporate conspiracy... but maybe you're getting to it, further on...

Since our leaders have been corrupted by the process, this giant political machine will never be dismantled.
We have allowed our ruling class to transfer the wealth of the middle class to China to ensure they prefer economic strength over military strength. This was wise to avert a future war as the 2 biggest kids on the block always end up having to square off.

All I got from this was, "conspiracy to controlz us by the evil rich bankers!".

Not sure how that relates to my question though.

The bottom line.
The whores in DC have succeeded in ruining the middle class here in the USA, since they are all wealthy, this doesn't bother them much.
So when you hear these liars targeting the wealthy Americans during one of their class warfare speeches, try and remain focused, as they are never going to tax themselves.

Cap & Trade is coming to a town near you.
I hope you like it deep....

I have absolutely no idea how you think this in any way whatsoever answers my question.

Will any GW "skeptic" even show they understand the question?

Again:

My question is regarding HOW this cap and trade is somehow SO lucrative that it can not only be more profitable than oil but also turn all but a small, fringe minority in the scientific community into stupid, incompetent tools for this corporate/government conspiracy, all over the world, when the truth is so simple that unqualified people on the internet can easily understand it?

Do you understand what derivatives and credit default swaps are? Do you remember what happened that caused the recent housing collapse and subsequent recession we are in? Do you understand what these "corporations" were doing that caused all this? That's a conspiracy theory that was real! Then our government bailed them out with our money while we got jackshit. Though I am guessing you think it was all the Republicans fault. So easy. lol I can see that you are a youngin' so you are probably full of ideals and don't understand how the real world works yet. The key for you to understand is how this new "market" of carbon credits will function. And it will operate exactly the same way these financial corporations did with the previous bubble. How is it more profitable than oil?!?! That's easy! Because you are making lot's of money selling absolutely nothing with the backing of the US taxpayer taking all the risk and expense! With oil, it's a finite, tangible commodity that costs a company money to produce. I think you need to do some research into all this yourself and stop listening to the silly propaganda anthems and soundbytes. I mean it's all good and grand your style of debating with somebody to disprove their theory is comparing them to Creationists or Truthers but that ain't going to get you any seats on a debating team. It takes actual knowledge and critical thinking skills to do that.

 

[Ed]

Do you understand what derivatives and credit default swaps are? Do you remember what happened that caused the recent housing collapse and subsequent recession we are in? Do you understand what these "corporations" were doing that caused all this? That's a conspiracy theory that was real!

Conspiracy theory is a term that originally was a neutral descriptor for any claim of civil, criminal, or political conspiracy. However, it has become largely pejorative and used almost exclusively to refer to any fringe theory which explains a historical or current event as the result of a secret plot by conspirators of almost superhuman power and cunning.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_theory

Sounds just like what you're promoting to me.

Then our government bailed them out with our money while we got jackshit. Though I am guessing you think it was all the Republicans fault. So easy. lol I can see that you are a youngin' so you are probably full of ideals and don't understand how the real world works yet.

Blah blah, I do wonder if you're going to get back to my question.

The key for you to understand is how this new "market" of carbon credits will function. And it will operate exactly the same way these financial corporations did with the previous bubble. How is it more profitable than oil?!?! That's easy! Because you are making lot's of money selling absolutely nothing with the backing of the US taxpayer taking all the risk and expense! With oil, it's a finite, tangible commodity that costs a company money to produce.

Yea you're right, oil isn't really all that much of a money maker. :roll:

I think you need to do some research into all this yourself and stop listening to the silly propaganda anthems and soundbytes. I mean it's all good and grand your style of debating with somebody to disprove their theory is comparing them to Creationists or Truthers but that ain't going to get you any seats on a debating team. It takes actual knowledge and critical thinking skills to do that.

Unsurprisingly you have once again ignored my question and wrote a paragraph of waffle.

How does any of that turn all but a few fringe minority of scientists into bumbling idiots ready to sell their proverbial souls and professional reputations to this government/evil banker conspiracy? They are either all too scared, too stupid or too evil. Maybe you should pick one and stop dancing around the question I'm actually asking you.