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Fader philosophy and mistakes (and Pacific as an example)

Vik

Vi-k
This is about ways to make libraries sound more realistic, achieve an easier workflow, and, if desired, avoid potential side effects of our faders moving too much into the most intense dynamic levels (example: portamento transition may pop up, more than you want them to). It's also about how not only using CC11/expression, but also CC 1/Modulation can cause artifacts.

Usually CC1 controls xfading between dynamic layers, and CC11 alters the volume. This leads to the false idea that when using only CC1, everything works just like with real instruments, but in a library with 4 dynamic layers, there are only 4 out of 127 CC1 Values which offers 'non-faded' levels. (Some of this has already been discussed in one of the Pacific threads.)

This is important to be aware at the top and bottom of the dynamic range. In the lowest range, you may find that Dynamic Layer 1 (the most quiet) isn't placed at CC value 1, but maybe at 22.

You may see that there isn't any xfading at the highest dynamic range either – after all, there's no layer to xfade into. Instead there's a boosting of the volume of Layer 4, to make it even louder. This may eg. begin around CC1 levels around 100-105. This can be useful, but comes with a side effect – it's easy to accidentally bump into the area which simply boosts the volume instead of xfading into another layer.

Another side effect of all this is that if the 20 lowest and 20 highest values are reserved for volume reduction or boost, your total dynamic range spans over (127-40) 87 values.

If we round that off to 88 for simplicty each of the four layers have a span of average only (88/4) 22 values. This means that your 10mm fader too short for detailed control.This can be addressed by using a MIDI plugin on the track, which scales the CC values by, say, 60% and in addition adds a 'CC makeup', adding eg 20 to all incoming values.

On top of all this, some people also use CC11 at the same time as they use CC1, which creates more trouble: all the volume changes become twice as dramatic, since volume changes now happens both with CC11 and with CC1 (remember that only 4 out of the 127 values contain a sample with non-altered or non-faded level). Result: controlling dynamics feels bumpy, the changes are too dramatic.
Before I continue: presets which adds some down-fading at the bottom and upfading at the top can definitely be useful as a 'lazy but not so realistic solution'. But why not have more options to choose between?

Performance Samples Pacific (and Vista) offers this solution (I use Pacific as an example since this may soon become my go-to library):

Pacific B page.png

Here you can both compress and expand the dynamic range. There's also a Makeup value, but since the calues is defined in decibel, I suspect that this may alter the audio signal (haven't checked that yet).

• Whether this is true or not, it would be great to have a 'CC value offset' here. By setting this to eg. 22, you'd never risk altering your dynamic levels down to where it sounds 'faded' or 'sounding MIDI'.

The values about 'register' refers to pitch register.

Here's an example of a MIDI plugin (from Logic):
Logic modifier.png
This one offers an Add value, aka the CC Makeup idea I mentioned above, so maybe using the Modifer to set the add value for the CCs combined with the Compress options in Pacific would be useful – but it's a little more complicated than that.

First of all: how can we figure out exactly what the ideal values would be when using these tools? In Logic's so called Environment, there's a way to find some useful answers by setting up this chain of objects. The image below shows that (with the number I've entered into the Real Time Transformer), placing my external fader at the top (127) will send a value of 91 into the sequences input.

Real Time Transform.png


This is useful for several reasons – for instance if one wants to avoid most of the most intense portamento transitions. t also helps with generally avoiding unwanted boosting at the top (dynamic) levels.

But the solution is cumbersome, so the MIDI plugin is more tempting. However, when using the MIDI plugin, we can't control and monitor exactly what happens, because the signal are still stored at value CC1/127 even if what we hear is CC1/91.

• For this reason it would be great if Pacific and other libraries came with a way to shows us the incoming (coming into the plugin, not into the sequences) CC values, either as a simple number, a moving slider, both, or something else. Some libraries offer that already.

• In order to avoid all kinds of cumbersomeness, it would also be great if Pacific and all other libraries came with a way to store settings for compressing/expanding and add/makeup, with names – or even come with a set of useful presets.

• Meanwhile, it may be smart to manually avoid the lowermost and uppermost levels of your Modhweel or external controller.



For the records, this isn't meant as a criticism against Pacific, of course – after all, this is one of the few libraries which come with a way to alter dynamic range behavior.
 
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This is really interesting - one of the most informative ”deep dives” I have seen into the intricacies of CC1/CC11. I’m in the process of setting up a MIDI fader template using TouchOSC - I think that offers the ability to constrain the values sent by the faders, which could be helpful in this situation.

Of course, since every sample library is going to have different values and breakpoints for cross-fading layers, I guess that opens the door to needing to customize each fader per library!
 
This is a topic struggling with over the last week...been trying to go back through sections of my first mockup to even out the CC1 lanes, and move more things to CC11.

Is this a good strategy? What are the best ways to determine how many dynamic layers are in a given patch/library, and where those transition points might be in CC1?

My keyboard (Kawai MP7) has the sliders hard coded to MIDI volume, so at the moment I'm having to do these things on the MIDI volume lane rather than CC11. Using the MIDI modifier plugin in Logic transforms the CC7 to CC11 in the instrument itself, but for some reason it still records the changes as MIDI Volume in the track itself.
 
My keyboard (Kawai MP7) has the sliders hard coded to MIDI volume
Pacific isn't hardwired rto use CC1 for x-fading between dynamic layers – you can assign x-fading to CC7, CC1 or whatever you want. So if you set it to CC7 instead of CC1, you can use your MP7 fader.
The problem is still that in presets which both covers evertyhing between the eg. 5 dynamic layers AND extra space at the top reserved for boosting the signal AND extra space at the top for reducing the level of the softest dynamic layer, each of these 7 areas have very litte individual space. Things can easily become bumpy, especally fr those who move two faders at the same time. Using a modwheel will also easily result in bumps.

This is why I hope I can find someone who can modify the main Pacific presets for me, so the full fader or modwheel range covers the 5 or 5 dynamic layers and nothing else. THis can be combined with using eg CC 11 to boost/reduce volume when needed.

On the other hand:

pacific dynamic layers.png


If slider A on this pic lets you define that you'll only address only, say, CC1 levels 25-95, the situation is better.


I haven't checked if this is possible. If not, having alternative presets or an update to Pacific would be great.

@jbuhler: Have you (or anyone else?) checked if this can be done by combining slider A and B?


EDIT: If one could, using slider A, to set both a min. and max. value instead of percentage (and instead of entering only one value), life would become easier.
 
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Pacific isn't hardwired rto use CC1 for x-fading between dynamic layers – you can assign x-fading to CC7, CC1 or whatever you want. So if you set it to CC7 instead of CC1, you can use your MP7 fader.
The problem is still that in presets which both covers evertyhing between the eg. 5 dynamic layers AND extra space at the top reserved for boosting the signal AND extra space at the top for reducing the level of the softest dynamic layer, each of these 7 areas have very litte individual space. Things can easily become bumpy, especally fr those who move two faders at the same time. Using a modwheel will also easily result in bumps.

This is why I hope I can find someone who can modify the main Pacific presets for me, so the full fader or modwheel range covers the 5 or 5 dynamic layers and nothing else. THis can be combined with using eg CC 11 to boost/reduce volume when needed.

On the other hand:

pacific dynamic layers.png


If slider A on this pic lets you define that you'll only address only, say, CC1 levels 25-95, the situation is better.


I haven't checked if this is possible. If not, having alternative presets or an update to Pacific would be great.

@jbuhler: Have you (or anyone else?) checked if this can be done by combining slider A and B?
I don't have Pacific...but trying to extend your topic to apply to other libraries, since you said "Pacific as an example".

In Anthology, for example, I did map the expression slider to receive from my MP7. And it works.

But, in Logic, it records the MIDI CC7 changes as MIDI volume...so the slider inside the Anthology instrument is moving, AND Logic is controlling the overall MIDI volume for that track as the changes are happening. I would like to be able to get the details of the phrasing using CC11, and then use a CC7 lane to do minor overall mix adjustments.

The solution is probably getting a MIDI controller that has some good sliders on it. Having CC1 and CC11 next to each other would be great.

Appreciate your thoughts!
 
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But, in Logic, it records the MIDI CC7 changes as MIDI volume...so the slider inside the Anthology instrument is moving, AND Logic is controlling the overall MIDI volume for that track as the changes are happening. I would like to be able to get the details of the phrasing using CC11, and then use a CC7 lane to do minor overall mix adjustments.

The solution is probably getting a MIDI controller that has some good sliders on it. Having CC1 and CC11 next to each other would be great.
Sure, a controller with a few faders on is definitely useful when dealing with orchestral libraries. I have a Nektar Panoarama P1 which I use all the time.

Regarding CC7: I haven't checked how this works in Logic, but personally I wouldn't mind trying out alternative solutions, and let the faders in Logic (for orchestral tracks) move according to how crossfades happen between dynamic layers. But if this ends up with not only Logic faders moving up and down, but that these faders are hardwired to control volume, this won't work. Maybe the Logic Remote app (or some other app for iPad or iPhone) can be set to work as a controller for CC1, CC7 and CC11?
 
Sure, a controller with a few faders on is definitely useful when dealing with orchestral libraries. I have a Nektar Panoarama P1 which I use all the time.

Regarding CC7: I haven't checked how this works in Logic, but personally I wouldn't mind trying out alternative solutions, and let the faders in Logic (for orchestral tracks) move according to how crossfades happen between dynamic layers. But if this ends up with not only Logic faders moving up and down, but that these faders are hardwired to control volume, this won't work. Maybe the Logic Remote app (or some other app for iPad or iPhone) can be set to work as a controller for CC1, CC7 and CC11?
Logic has two options….MIDI volume, which sits in the MIDI editor below the notes. This does not move the volume sliders in the mixer.

Then there is a volume automation lane, which does move the sliders.

So I could use the MIDI volume for expression shaping, and the volume slider automation later for mixdown.

Never tried Logic remote, but TouchOSC on an iPad may be a good option until I get hardware sliders.
 
What are the best ways to determine how many dynamic layers are in a given patch/library, and where those transition points might be in CC1?
I'm in touch with Jasper Blunk about this also, and he sent me a short video explaining some of it. I don't know enough about Kontakt to understand that video. But there are Kontakt experts here on VI-C, maybe @EvilDragon or someone else can give us some helpful tips??


My own most important questions are:

At what CC values are each of the dynamic layers starting?

At what CC value is the loudest sample placed? This is interesting because above that value, there are no more layers, so everything happens thru volume change in that area.

Ditto for the most quiet sample. Is it stored at for instance CC1/22? If it is, everything below 22 is volume change only, not xfading between dynamic layers.
For most libraries it's also important to know at which levels the portamentos chime in (but for most libraries, this is also a known value).

Again, I think all libraries should have a possibility to define the max and min values you want your external fader to operate within. Berlin Strings, Soaring strings and other offer some solutions, but nothing as straight forward as allowing the user to set the max(min values at any number between 1 and 127.

Also: imagine how useful it would be if these two knows or sliders also would could be automated! This may sound overly complex, but it would allow for an extremely user friendly workflow.
Example: in a quiet section you may want to operate only in the two lowest dynamic layers, which eg. would range eg. between CC1 values 1 to 50. To achieve that solution, you could just Pacific or any other library that your value one (on your fader) should result on level 1, but level 127 should result in 50. This way we would have super fine control and no bumps.
 
Of course, since every sample library is going to have different values and breakpoints for cross-fading layers, I guess that opens the door to needing to customize each fader per library!
Since they all tru to achieve smooth xfading between the dynamic layers, I think the there are mainly three 'zones' thing we need to deal with in all libraries:

The top zone, if any; this is where there is nor more x-fading, it's only volume changes. We need a simple way to avoid bumping into that area when we don't want to.

The middle zone (with one 'sub-zone' for each dynamic layer): this is the area between 1) the value where the loudest dynamic sample is placed – for instance at CC1/95, and 2) the value where the most quiet sample is placed, eg at CC1/20.

The zone below the x-fading, if any. That's where the sound of the most quiet sample simply is being faded down (and this is one area where it starts to sound 'MIDI'), especially in a transparent mix.
It also sounds Midified when we just boost the volume of the the top zone (if any), because the result of moving a volume fader is different from the sound of eg. a string section playing louder.
 
Pacific isn't hardwired rto use CC1 for x-fading between dynamic layers – you can assign x-fading to CC7, CC1 or whatever you want. So if you set it to CC7 instead of CC1, you can use your MP7 fader.
The problem is still that in presets which both covers evertyhing between the eg. 5 dynamic layers AND extra space at the top reserved for boosting the signal AND extra space at the top for reducing the level of the softest dynamic layer, each of these 7 areas have very litte individual space. Things can easily become bumpy, especally fr those who move two faders at the same time. Using a modwheel will also easily result in bumps.

This is why I hope I can find someone who can modify the main Pacific presets for me, so the full fader or modwheel range covers the 5 or 5 dynamic layers and nothing else. THis can be combined with using eg CC 11 to boost/reduce volume when needed.

On the other hand:

pacific dynamic layers.png


If slider A on this pic lets you define that you'll only address only, say, CC1 levels 25-95, the situation is better.


I haven't checked if this is possible. If not, having alternative presets or an update to Pacific would be great.

@jbuhler: Have you (or anyone else?) checked if this can be done by combining slider A and B?
No I haven’t yet worked with these sliders but I have adjusted the response curve some so that the top layer appears in a narrower band and that helps with the portamento as it restricts the amount of the modwheel given over to the top layer.
 
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I only been following the Pacific thread fairly casually, but I want to rant a bit here... just as a general rant.

When I first got into VIs, I was astounded that the tech I'd used when growing up (MIDI) was still exactly the same, and the DAW companies (and pretty much everyone else) had done absolutely nothing to improve on it. Absolutely. Nothing. Zilch.

It's all just technology from the early 1980s. It's 40 years old now... nearly as old as I am! We have VSTs and such now, but they are still managed by the same old MIDI standard. We've ended up moving an interface designed for the limitations of early 80's chip technology into modern software.

Sure, the MIDI standards have proven incredibly flexible and robust, way more than the original designers I think expected. But the cost of that flexibility has meant all the designs and ways of doing things is still based on it. This was immediately obvious when I started using virtual instruments - I was amazed.

I know there are new MIDI standards that allow for varying bit length in the payload, but wow... I can't think of any other technology that has suffered so from such a lack of innovation. MIDI 2.0 is still "up and coming" in terms of us being able to use it's features.

I'm just triggered by the fact we are still talking about CC controllers that are limited to 7-bit data, designed for a 3.8 KB/s transfer rate, with all the weird issues this brings (yep, you read that right... it's less that 4 KB per second... which is incredibly efficient, but exemplifies the compromises/limitations built into the old MIDI standard). Including having such poor resolution on the controllers, which contributes to the issues @Vik is bringing up here.

On some VSTs that need to stuff so much into what CC1 does, I can hear the 7-bit / 128 steps as the CC is cross-fading between the layers.

It's good some of the software companies like Steinberg are involved in the new MIDI standards, but yeah, it's glacial progress, and we suffer for it.

OK, I'll stop my rant now.
 
On some VSTs that need to stuff so much into what CC1 does, I can hear the 7-bit / 128 steps as the CC is cross-fading between the layers.
I can't hear that, but there are 4-5 layers spread over the length of a modwheel, including some room for reducing the bottom and increasing the top. If Beethoven would pop up from his grave and someone told him that composer now can control a full string section from a small thing which is a few centimeters long + boost the loudest playing and tone down the quietest playing, he wouldn't even bother to ask if the world had gone totally bonkers – he would immediately start to dig himself – with his bare ands – into at least six feet under. Probably 12.
 
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