Endless Revisions.

[Ivan Duch]

You make good points. I didn’t say my clients were an asshole though, just that the process is incredibly difficult due to endless conflicting ideas and methods.

No, I know, I was answering to @soundslikejoe.

I mean I get angry too when it happens. But framing the whole thing that way is draining and gets you jaded.

And it's also not completely true or fair to a client most of the time. I try my best to empathize with my client and find a way out of the situation that works for everyone involved. It's hard to do that properly when angry.

So, I'd suggest you think of some way to communicate properly and diplomatically that you can't sustain the situation any longer and you need to get paid extra and also a different way for them to handle feedback to be able to keep writing revisions.

When you do that you'll know for sure if the client is an asshole or not by their response and then you can choose what to do with that information. Leaving the project is always an option.

 

[PaulLawler]

No, I know, I was answering to @soundslikejoe.

I mean I get angry too when it happens. But framing the whole thing that way is draining and gets you jaded.

And it's also not completely true or fair to a client most of the time. I try my best to empathize with my client and find a way out of the situation that works for everyone involved. It's hard to do that properly when angry.

So, I'd suggest you think of some way to communicate properly and diplomatically that you can't sustain the situation any longer and you need to get paid extra and also a different way for them to handle feedback to be able to keep writing revisions.

When you do that you'll know for sure if the client is an asshole or not by their response and then you can choose what to do with that information. Leaving the project is always an option.

I think really that prevention is the best cure in cases like this and that was kind of the point of my original post, and I’ve had some great suggestions on that, so thanks everybody.

 

[Ivan Duch]

I think really that prevention is the best cure in cases like this and that was kind of the point of my original post, and I’ve had some great suggestions on that, so thanks everybody.

I apologize if you or anyone here understood I meant your music wasn't good. Not my meaning at all.

When you are at this point accept the client isn't really happy with your music and there is not much you can do about it. It's a matter of taste. They are just trying to make you be the composer that you aren't. Adjusted to their own taste.

And I think I was a bit too absolute here. What I really meant is that your client is probably not liking the music for the scene. There's still stuff you can do but you need to ask for proper compensation.

Have you checked the score Stephen Barton and Gordy Haab shared from the Jedi Survivor soundtrack? There were some cues with v7 and up. But I imagine they charged accordingly.

 

[Satorious]

Not read full thread - but from my experience this sounds like either a power struggle between producer/director regarding the edit or the filmmakers have little actual experience. I'd politely say something along the lines of: the number of score adjustments/changes has become unreasonable. I really like the project but I now have other jobs which are taking up my time. You could offer to do one final round of smaller adjustments - but make it clear that after this they will need to pay you (insert time/rate here) for future amendments. Also make sure you have covered yourself in terms of copyright/payment regardless of what ultimately happens - even if they don't use your work.

 

[PaulLawler]

I apologize if you or anyone here understood I meant your music wasn't good. Not my meaning at all.


And I think I was a bit too absolute here. What I really meant is that your client is probably not liking the music for the scene. There's still stuff you can do but you need to ask for proper compensation.

Have you checked the score Stephen Barton and Gordy Haab shared from the Jedi Survivor soundtrack? There were some cues with v7 and up. But I imagine they charged accordingly.

I actually agree with you Ivan, I think this amount of revision also points to me not being the best person for the job. The rest of the blame falls on them for trying to somehow find a way for the music to be a cure all sticking plaster for the scenes they’ve always been insecure about.

 

[Ivan Duch]

I actually agree with you Ivan, I think this amount of revision also points to me not being the best person for the job. The rest of the blame falls on them for trying to somehow find a way for the music to be a cure all sticking plaster for the scenes they’ve always been insecure about.

Well, I think the only thing you can blame yourself for is not having a max revisions clause in your contract and not asking for very clear references and feedback the minute you noticed they were all over the place. But I know how it feels, you keep hoping this time they approve the song since you're already too invested into the project.

From some stuff you said I imagine you're not a big fan of the film either. Most of the time when I end up in the place you are right now I'm not feeling very inspired by the source material. The project we accept and the people we work with are other things we might be able to control sometimes.

But again, I'd take a deep breath and do what @Satorious just mentioned. It worked for me the last time I was in your position, the moment I communicated openly what was going on my side I got paid and they went with another composer for those specific songs while keeping the rights to what I wrote just in case.

 

[PaulLawler]

Well, I think the only thing you can blame yourself for is not having a max revisions clause in your contract and not asking for very clear references and feedback the minute you noticed they were all over the place. But I know how it feels, you keep hoping this time they approve the song since you're already too invested into the project.

From some stuff you said I imagine you're not a big fan of the film either. Most of the time when I end up in the place you are right now I'm not feeling very inspired by the source material. The project we accept and the people we work with are other things we might be able to control sometimes.

But again, I'd take a deep breath and do what @Satorious just mentioned. It worked for me the last time I was in your position, the moment I communicated openly what was going on my side I got paid and they went with another composer for those specific songs while keeping the rights to what I wrote just in case.

I think you missed a few points though. The notes have been incredibly detailed. The spotting session was 6 hours long. I scored the film and the director loved it, but it then transpired the producers and director were not at all on the same page when it came to the style and feel of the first part of the film. So this involved huge rewrites with promises it won’t happen again. It’s because I like the film that I kept going. The second act they’ve never been happy with since the script stage, and that involved an awful lot more revisions until the music helped them get past what they didn’t like about the pace of the film, the actors, script etc. from then on it was decided that the rest of the film might as well have this new makeover that seemed to be fixing things in the film for them, and the power struggle between director and producers about repeated character motifs being used or not, and other things has been a tremendous and exhausting struggle.

 

[Thundercat]

You’d probably be on a better hourly rate too.

Plus free food.

 

[asherpope]

Just lie and say you have to start a new project in the next week and can only work on it til then

 

[rgames]

How do people protect themselves from such a situation ?

Put a period of performance in your contract. That doesn't eliminate the misery but it reduces its duration.

 

[authentic-soundware]

I think your earlier question about a manager stepping in is spot on. In my experience, it's usually best if, throughout the whole process from beginning to end, creatives talk to creatives and producers talk to producers. That way your personal relationship with the director remains purely creative and the vibe is always good between you. You kind of need a good cop/bad cop situation, where your manager steps in and says "Look, Paul would love to take your Charles Ives-inspired music edit and work on it some more, but I've got him booked on another project and he just can't right now. And when he does, we'll need an overage of x amount." And then when they agree to that, you can work with the director as if that awkward conversation never happened.

 

[wfm]

...and the power struggle between director and producers about repeated character motifs being used or not, and other things has been a tremendous and exhausting struggle.

The director and the producers should not involve you again until the picture is locked.

At that point, as @soundslikejoe said, one person should give you the final notes.

If they continue to "power struggle /monkey with the edit" after that, be sure they know you will need to be paid in advance and that you will work on a set date(s) as @rgames stated above.

Because there are 1000s of shelved films and records where some parties couldn't agree.
Hopefully that won't be the case here.

As I was typing I see authentic-soundware has a wonderful suggestion too.

 

[PaulLawler]

The director and the producers should not involve you again until the picture is locked.

At that point, as @soundslikejoe said, one person should give you the final notes.

If they continue to "power struggle /monkey with the edit" after that, be sure they know you will need to be paid in advance and that you will work on a set date(s) as @rgames stated above.

Because there are 1000s of shelved films and records where some parties couldn't agree.
Hopefully that won't be the case here.

As I was typing I see authentic-soundware has a wonderful suggestion too.

The film has been locked for months, that’s why everybody was trying to fix it with the music. Actually though it seems like there’s been a breakthrough and I’m down to my last few notes as of today, and then I’m done, barring deliverables, but I’ll never let myself be put in this position again.
Once again thanks to everybody for taking the time to offer their advice and experience.

 

[LivingForce_14]

The film has been locked for months, that’s why everybody was trying to fix it with the music. Actually though it seems like there’s been a breakthrough and I’m down to my last few notes as of today, and then I’m done, barring deliverables, but I’ll never let myself be put in this position again.
Once again thanks to everybody for taking the time to offer their advice and experience.

That is great to hear! As others have said, set the expectations from the start in a contract, have one point of contact for notes/revisions, and let them know there will not be infinite edits on your score. Glad you will be able to move on to the next project after arduous task.

 

[Ivan Duch]

Put a period of performance in your contract. That doesn't eliminate the misery but it reduces its duration.

That sounds like an interesting clause. You not only add a limit to revisions but also the period of time you can work on the project?

 

[rgames]

That sounds like an interesting clause. You not only add a limit to revisions but also the period of time you can work on the project?

I wouldn't worry about limiting number of revisions. Defining a "revision" is vague - minor edits shouldn't count and you create kind of a vibe of nickel-and-diming your client. Defining a PoP is vastly more effective and, more importantly, enforceable. There's no ambiguity in a date.

If you have a PoP then you push at least part of the schedule risk back on the production - if they want edits they'll come at the expense of other cues. So which do they want? That forces them to make decisions.

Plus, it allows you to schedule other work. If you have five endless contracts how can you commit to another effort in a month or two? PoP clauses are extremely common for that reason.

 

[PaulLawler]

I wouldn't worry about limiting number of revisions. Defining a "revision" is vague - minor edits shouldn't count and you create kind of a vibe of nickel-and-diming your client. Defining a PoP is vastly more effective and, more importantly, enforceable. There's no ambiguity in a date.

If you have a PoP then you push at least part of the schedule risk back on the production - if they want edits they'll come at the expense of other cues. So which do they want? That forces them to make decisions.

Plus, it allows you to schedule other work. If you have five endless contracts how can you commit to another effort in a month or two? PoP clauses are extremely common for that reason.

Is this clause any different than a contract that has a defined music delivery date ?

 

[Ivan Duch]

I wouldn't worry about limiting number of revisions. Defining a "revision" is vague - minor edits shouldn't count and you create kind of a vibe of nickel-and-diming your client. Defining a PoP is vastly more effective and, more importantly, enforceable. There's no ambiguity in a date.

Can totally relate to that.

Do you charge by minute of music in a contract like that?

 

[vitocorleone123]

I can't speak to the creation of audio for professional reasons, but as a UX designer and researcher, the experience can be very similar.

Thankfully, research and data is often accepted by decision makers in regards to UX. Alas, that doesn't seem to be the case for music.

The best parallel I could suggest would be: agree to the rules up front (for UX, this includes the "definition of done") and, if the rules are broken by the decision maker, avoid working with them again if you can afford to do so.