Cadence question
- Thread starter WindcryMusic
- Start date
jbuhler
Senior Member
It’s iv7-V in F and if you use Bb minor in first inversion so Db moves to C in the bass and Bb moves to C in the soprano, it’s a form of Phrygian cadence, with the typical 6-8 interval expansion in the outer voices found in modal counterpoint. A common schema moves Ab-Bb in soprano over Db then resolved to C major with Cs in outer voices: Db-Bbmin6-C.
Emanuel Fróes
Senior Member
you have 3 tones assigned to dominant function in late romantic music : the 2b´, the 4´, the 6b´ . Added to this the Bb gives a typical modal feel. But his cadence is not common. Ig you are in F minor this is more common, like in Scarlatti. Any theoris would classify this in F minor, not C Major, if you just quote this part.
Can you play these cadences in all keys? I would check this, if you want to understand better theory. Or also check the video below.
And attention: do not confuse phrygian with half cadence in minor.
* the c´# is a d´b
Attachments
Last edited:
WindcryMusic
Senior Member
It’s very interesting to see the different takes on interpreting this change. And I tend to think there’s some degree of validity in all of them.
Enamuel, regarding the quote above, I tried out your F minor version and it does sound more classical that way, than when thinking of it as C major. Nonetheless I like it in C major as well. By way of an explanation, I came across this when transcribing a portion of Goldsmith’s main theme for Star Trek from memory, and specifically a measure that uses several planing chords. When I went back to listen to the original piece, it turned out my transcription of the penultimate chord was incorrect and the actual chord was more straightforward, but to be honest I liked my transcribed version a little better (I know … what chutzpah!) because I’d extended the planing through one additional chord and ended up with the Bbm7 to C major change that I asked about. It absolutely helps to see it in Fm, but I don’t think I’ll shy away from using it in C major too.
SupremeFist
Senior Member
Yet another way to look at it might be that VIIdim is a common substitute for V7; if you then lower the bass and third by a semitone you get bviim7, so it's kind of a doubly substituted dominant (or simply a v7b5b9 with no root).
Last edited:
Emanuel Fróes
Senior Member
it can be in any key. Normally in theory we choose the easiest and more natural explanation. Without other chords is hard to tell which is the most simple explanaiton. This can perfectly be a modal cadence in a C major piece, because of the neapolitan tones..
Hearing now the music i see that the cadence is in G, and there is no Bbm i can hear. I hear a Bb on bass,possible of a Eb4/6. IN this case a plagal cadence where the subdominant chord is on C, but sounds like a sus4. This all sounds very fast, I would have to check again.
Now this is what i found for the keys, in a short look:
The music starts in Bb, with a clear dominant statement of F Major at the end of the phrase (half cadence). Typical opening setence in the classicisism, with the diference that hear the composer is smart guy and just repeat it straight forward.
This short theme is answered with abrupt modulation into major chromatic mediant. The answer of a theme using a key in a relationship of 3th to the tonic comes from minor themes in the classicism and dance movements in the barroque, when a section in the minor tonic preceds another in the rel. major. . Later romantic composers use it, but they used a lot conserving the same minor or major mode. This was part of the "expansion" of sonata form. So you have the chromatic mediant playing a role in the form, as in this music. I guess you find in Schubert and Beethoven the first of such examples.
This answer is repeated a half step above, on the subdominant of Bb. Another very smart and efficient move. He knows that the abrupt modulation gave richness to the harmony without losing the tonal coherence. This means, he can tension one step more, away from tonic now, and gives a basic development (i would rather call it short term "distraction") that makes the reprise of the theme more satisfatory. This part ends on the dominant of Bb.
Considering parts in the key of subdominant is a great way of giving the feeling of distraction/development, but also knowing where you are: you are close to the dominant, and so you are just few steps of a modulation back to tonic (Ruckmodulation).
It is a tri-part form, where the contrastant section is one-part, or "direct", and the first and last are parts based on alternation like theme/soft contrast. For a moment I thought he would do a kind of rondeau, what is not a bad idea for such situation! The bass remain very solid and coherent in the first and last parts, so I guess the composer singed over a chord progression he liked.I guess he had a very solid and grotest insight based on bass line. It is structural and steady for the whole piece, despite the contrast section. To not say, maybe he composed this in the organ? It is a perfect organ theme.
I can´t continue, but It is a great piece. thanks for reminding me.
If you transcribe some bars of the Robcop theme, I offer a free lesson
WindcryMusic
Senior Member
Wow!
Just to set the record straight, I didn’t bother to check which key the actual piece is in, as at the time I was just doing that one little section from memory, and I don’t have perfect absolute pitch. I chose to transcribe that one little section (the couple of measures starting at 0:31 in the video below) in C major since it’s the easiest for me to think about (for the obvious reasons). I just checked and that section is in Eb major, leading up to the F major and then back into the key of Bb. I perhaps should have checked before posting my query to avoid any confusion, but I didn’t actually expect to be naming the piece in question, since I already knew my chords of interest aren’t actually present (it’s simply Db major to Eb major, rather than the Db minor 7th that I’d transcribed from memory).
Outside of that, this is a wonderful analysis that I’m going to want to review at length when I look at the piece as a whole. Thanks!
p.s. - Yes, I know it can be in any key, I was just doing exactly what you said … picking an easy key for purposes of the discussion.
Rowy van Hest
Active Member
Almost everything sounds beautiful when you apply chromatic steps. I wouldn't even think about chords or possible harmonies. Eventually you could enter the wonderful world of floating tonality.
Begfred
Active Member
You mention the tritone substitution and it’s almost the case. The V tritone sub in C would be Db7. With Bbm7 You have the relative minor chord of Db. Only the B leading tone is missing. but you have the Db (leading to C), the F (resolving to E) and the Ab moving to G. 3 descending half tone.
Sorry if it as already been mentioned…
Sorry if it as already been mentioned…
WindcryMusic
Senior Member
That’s a very good point. Thanks!
