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Buy a cheap piano or VSL Concert D Standard

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Empireofthemoons

New Member
I was thinking about getting a cheapish piano but also looking at maybe getting the VSL Concert D standard in the meantime and save some extra money and get a decent piano, upright that would be.

I have Pianovere, Garritan and many more sample libraries, but none really sound like a piano. There is this sound that they all have, it's like clunky 2D sound, I think it's very noticeable when you play repeated chords, it has this block-like sound ( I am sure that doesn't make much sense)

What I have heard from the Concert D VSL, it might be the closest I have heard from a sample library.

Anyways, would be interested to get people's thoughts and suggestions. Thank you.
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Consider the transport cost and ongoing maintenance (tuning) of an acoustic piano before buying one, especially a cheap upright which may be frustrating from a sound and playability perspective.

No sampled or modeled piano can achieve the immersive experience of playing even a mid-quality acoustic piano, and they rely heavily on high quality monitoring (headphones or monitors) and a quality weighted action controller/keyboard to do them justice.
 
CGR said:
Consider the transport cost and ongoing maintenance (tuning) of an acoustic piano before buying one, especially a cheap upright which may be frustrating from a sound and playability perspective.

No sampled or modeled piano can achieve the immersive experience of playing even a mid-quality acoustic piano, and they rely heavily on high quality monitoring (headphones or monitors) and a quality weighted action controller/keyboard to do them justice.
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I should say it's for recording. Defo no sample can get the sound of playing a piano but recording I think is a different story.
 
Really depends on what you want to achieve with the recordings. I’m sure you’re aware of the rabbit hole you can disappear down when recording an acoustic instrument, and pianos and their environment are particularly challenging. So, highly dependent on your objectives and setup.
 
CGR said:
Really depends on what you want to achieve with the recordings. I’m sure you’re aware of the rabbit hole you can disappear down when recording an acoustic instrument, and pianos and their environment are particularly challenging. So, highly dependent on your objectives and setup.
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Yeah I get you, been there many times. I use to record a lot with a lovely Steinway B when I lived in the city but alas it's far away now.

I was a bit shocked hearing how good the VSL sounded, it ain't perfect but I with some eq and some tweaking it would record well.
 
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The VSL Steinway side-chained to the resonance engine of Pianoteq 8 and its Hamburg Steinway model D is well worth exploring. I’ve posted about my tests with it in the past on this forum. It helps make up for the inadequacy of the VSL Synchron Piano sympathetic resonance engine, and lack of sustain re-pedaling.
 
CGR said:
the rabbit hole you can disappear down when recording an acoustic instrument, and pianos and their environment are particularly challenging
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Completely realistic advice.

This is what I was considering for my own situation (if I decide to go deeper down the rabbit hole--LOL): if you have the right kind of room (large enough and treated properly), and have found a really solid upright piano, after getting it tuned, you could hire an expert recording engineer to come over and get you set up for recording (try to call an engineer that has done real piano recordings you personally like of upright pianos). Buy the mics they recommend (likely a stereo pair), have them do test recordings until the sound you get coming back through the through the monitor speakers and headphones is satisfying, then leave that setup forever basically. A bit of an investment, but this plan would have a chance of working. Even better to get them in ahead of time and basically give you a no B.S. assessment of your room acoustics.

The best upright I've heard recorded regularly is on the NPR Tiny Desk concerts. The piano is a Yamaha upright (the model everyone uses in studios in lieu of a grand). The engineer Josh R. gets excellent recordings of all instruments, upright piano no exception. You can go on the NPR Tiny Desk channel and find all kinds of videos with the piano. The mics they use on the piano are Sennheiser MKH40s.

There is even a nice tutorial:

 
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I agree with @CGR. You'll have another rabbit hole in terms of recording the upright.

Again it all really depends on the recording environment you have, insulation, mics used etc.

Nothing comes close to the interaction with a live breathing instrument under the fingers, even an upright in your case as opposed to a perfectly recorded sample library.

But i wouldn't go the cheap way:

- If you're set on an upright, consider a U3 or maybe a Bechstein. A nice sounding upright will make your life easier on the long run.

- Nothing wrong with going the samples route. VSL Steinway is one i regret not buying as it's still probably the most immersive VSL piano i've ever tested. I own the CFX and the 280VC but still wish i got the Steinway instead.


Side note: A Yamaha dealer near me has a Yamaha C7X in the showroom. Every time i go play it, i come back and have some day/night dreams about owning it. I just need $45,000 and i'll be ready to sell my soul :P
 
maybe check out a digital piano, lots of reviews on line.

Roland, Yam, Casio Privia

i got the Casio Privia S1100 coz its small and inexpensive and giggable( not that i ever will) and most importantly, the sounds and action got good reviews, apart from black notes feeling differently weighted apparently.
 
Louie said:
Completely realistic advice.

This is what I was considering for my own situation (if I decide to go deeper down the rabbit hole--LOL): if you have the right kind of room (large enough and treated properly), and have found a really solid upright piano, after getting it tuned, you could hire an expert recording engineer to come over and get you set up for recording (try to call an engineer that has done real piano recordings you personally like of upright pianos). Buy the mics they recommend (likely a stereo pair), have them do test recordings until the sound you get coming back through the through the monitor speakers and headphones is satisfying, then leave that setup forever basically. A bit of an investment, but this plan would have a chance of working. Even better to get them in ahead of time and basically give you a no B.S. assessment of your room acoustics.

The best upright I've heard recorded regularly is on the NPR Tiny Desk concerts. The piano is a Yamaha upright (the model everyone uses in studios in lieu of a grand). The engineer Josh R. gets excellent recordings of all instruments, upright piano no exception. You can go on the NPR Tiny Desk channel and find all kinds of videos with the piano. The mics they use on the piano are Sennheiser MKH40s.

There is even a nice tutorial:

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I am an engineer so that isn't a problem, I've recording many pianos myself from Steinway's to Petfoff's. I am just looking at things from a sound perspective
Yeah, that is a nice piano sound. My room is treated so that is one bonus if I got a good upright. I think samples work very well in tracks but when the piano is exposed as in a classical piece you can really tell in most cases that it's sampled.
 
Empireofthemoons said:
. . . I think samples work very well in tracks but when the piano is exposed as in a classical piece you can really tell in most cases that it's sampled.
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Not just in a classical piano music. Sampled pianos are inadequate in comparison to a quality recording of an acoustic piano in many genres & styles.
 
Also, I should add out of all the piano sample libraries I have when compared to stuff I recorded on a Steinway B Pianoverse and Simple Sam were the best. I found the Garritan CFX weak, overly bright and hallow then again I have never recorded on a real Yamaha and I know they are somewhat on the brigher side.
 
Empireofthemoons said:
I am an engineer so that isn't a problem, I've recording many pianos myself from Steinway's to Petfoff's. I am just looking at things from a sound perspective
Yeah, that is a nice piano sound. My room is treated so that is one bonus if I got a good upright. I think samples work very well in tracks but when the piano is exposed as in a classical piece you can really tell in most cases that it's sampled.
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Cool! Those are a couple big hurdles cleared then.

Also of course the player reaction/interaction that also get's captured with actual playing and experiencing the resonance of an acoustic piano in 3D space. The player doesn't react the same way even with the best samples played through nice speakers--just feels different.
 
Elrik Settee said:
maybe check out a digital piano, lots of reviews on line.

Roland, Yam, Casio Privia

i got the Casio Privia S1100 coz its small and inexpensive and giggable( not that i ever will) and most importantly, the sounds and action got good reviews, apart from black notes feeling differently weighted apparently.
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Let us not forget about Kawai! I have a CA901, and I absolutely love it. The Grand Touch 3 is great. I love an acoustic piano, but there is something to be said for being able to plug in headphones and get into a deep practice at 5am without waking my two-year old in the next room.

I get 10x the amount of practice than I am able to get in on my acoustic with that digital piano, and it sounds phenomenal IMO. Hell, you can even hook it up via midi and play your piano vst's on it, too.

Just my two cents

Edit: No tuning upkeep is a huge +
 
Clearstone said:
Let us not forget about Kawai! I have a CA901, and I absolutely love it. The Grand Touch 3 is great. I love an acoustic piano, but there is something to be said for being able to plug in headphones and get into a deep practice at 5am without waking my two-year old in the next room.

I get 10x the amount of practice than I am able to get in on my acoustic with that digital piano, and it sounds phenomenal IMO. Hell, you can even hook it up via midi and play your piano vst's on it, too.

Just my two cents

Edit: No tuning upkeep is a huge +
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I have a Roland FP 30 and the piano sound is alot better than many piano sample libraries I think. Of course it's missing many things alot of sample libraries have but from a sound perspective, it doesn't have that thiny sound alot have.
 
Empireofthemoons said:
I have a Roland FP 30 and the piano sound is alot better than many piano sample libraries I think. Of course it's missing many things alot of sample libraries have but from a sound perspective, it doesn't have that thiny sound alot have.
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For sure. There are a lot of subpar piano vsts, and a solid Roland will sound better.

I don't know what the Kawai engineers did when sampling their SK-EX Competition Grand to make it genuinely sound like you are at the player's bench, but I do know that my Focal headphones and that 901 are a beautiful combo.

Acoustics you gotta treat the room properly, too. I have all kinds of custom dispersion/absorption from GIK acoustics that do a wonderful job, but that CA901 with good headphones and that competition grand... ooh la la...

The speaker system in it is nothing to sneer at either. The soundboard on the back of it will bang, but then here we go again with room treatment lol. Digital pianos and headphones are just so worth it for practicality and realism on the dollar. (Recording, Midi, Different Voices, Headphones, No Upkeep etc. etc.)
 
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