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An Opinion On Developer Complaints

P

procreative

Senior Member
I have watched the degeneration of many initially valid complaints into slanging matches on here and just wanted to make some calm observations.

I think developers need to take one thing on board.

In an attempt to (a) sell their product and (b) pride in their creations, many developers make very polished walkthroughs eulogising about their fantastic product.

Sometimes they use demos made by some of the best writers/programmers (which may be themselves sometimes). No problem there as we want to hear it sound its best. However I think sometimes it gets forgotten that some of the more impressive features such as legato, require a fair bit of tech knowledge and massaging.

Thats where some users become frustrated as they do not realise they cannot just plug n play every patch and get perfect results. It takes a bit more work and then there is the technical side of hardware causing issues.

Bottom line, be respectful to developers. In turn please all developers understand that your polished sales pitches can sometimes lead to false expectations and that the tricks you know to get the most out of your products may not be obvious to users.

Me personally I tend to email the developer first, however some developers refuse to address issues or even acknowledge they exist. So sometimes users post here to get confirmation they are not alone and that issues might be not user specific.
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In b4 the lock

But yeah, from a newbie perspective, it is not pretty. I agree with the OP.

First week on VI Control, long time abuser of well known gear fora. To an outsider this weekend's antics are quite extreme for a manufacturer/developer IMHO.

The customer is always right (in public).

Great forum. You people really have something special here. o-[][]-o
 
I missed most of the hoopla but i can guess what happened.
I have a different take on it. Some people aren't that good and they take it out on their products. I am not saying that I haven't done exactly that. Just that i heard a mockup that Rob did using ik philharmonic i think and it was stellar. I immediately had two thoughts 1) I will never take the effort to mockup something that is on that level and 2) you cannot blame the product for your lack of effort or skill if somebody can take an outdated inferior product and do a stellar job.

So people need to quit their public bitching and buckle down. So instead of blah, blah whining about that you can't sound as good as the demos, either work on sounding better or realize that you won't or can't do what it takes. There are many ways to make music. Rather than whine, just find another tool.

So the dev has every right to fight back if some hack goes public about problems with their products. Again I am not above it all. Just try to keep it in perspective. Maybe it's you that is sucking and not the library. That is how i think now.
 
In the graphic world it's easier to understand what a product is but certainly on Virtual Instruments we tend to think differently by mistake.

I've been also in that point were trying to write something, and realize that it doesn't sound good.
Then you listen to product demos and when finding some amazing results, as soon as you save some money you quickly go to purchase the instruments thinking that you've acquired the ability to sound like this or that demo.

Obviously it won't happen. If you write something not expressed properly the virtual instrument won't read the expression that you have in mind and will apply the results magically.

Then (after spending in many libraries) is when one realize that the instruments are just tools, just resources.

If something doesn't works as you've expected, it's obvious that is not the instruments fault, but you. One have to learn instead how to properly orchestrate and play (programming in my case) such instruments first.

So, a very clear simile in the graphic world would be a painter.
Nobody expect that buying the latest Wacom tablet it will give you the ability to paint like God automatically. Or brushes with hair from this or that animal, or a given brand of acrilic... hey. these are just tools, if you want to do good paintings you have to learn to paint first, simply as that.

That you'll feel more comfortable with this or that brand of painting material is not related at all with your skills as painter.
First at all you have to be a -painter-, and later choose the tools that best fit to you. No brush will do the job for you.

Carles
 
I think this point is a non-starter.

If you were to listen to a demo of a microphone and preamp that was being demonstrated by Stevie Wonder, .. would you then assume that that mic and preamp would make you sound like Stevie Wonder?
 
Nothing that has been stated here is entirely incorrect. However, there is another side to it that I find interesting.

When I buy a car, I know that there was a team of designers that spent months if not years pouring their heart and soul into the design of that automobile. But if after I've purchased it, as the consumer, I can count on being able to take it back to the dealership to have it serviced if something is not working as I expect. And I expect to be treated with respect, even if the problem is user error.

Can you imagine how bizarre it would be if when I took it in for service, a designer came to the counter and started ranting at me that I don't know what the hell I'm talking about, and that I'm clearly a shitty driver and must be doing it wrong, and do I have any idea how much time they spent designing it?

But yet ,here, that behavior is perfectly acceptable from library developers. If you ask me, some of them either need to hire some PR folks to handle their public interactions, or take a page from Eric from Spectrasonics. Venture on over to Amazon and you shouldn't have to search too hard to find an exchange of comments between Eric and a customer during which Eric showed amazing patience and professionalism with this guy, who truly only had an axe to grind.
 
I think the key word here is respect. No developer likes to have their products bashed, but if the question is asked respectfully, I don't think any developer would mind. "Hey - this isn't working for me here - what am I doing wrong? How do you guys deal with this?" I don't think Paul, Christian and Andy would mind so much if it's that. But when they, and someone else on the team explains that a user is doing something wrong, explains the right way to do it and the user comes back with, "So obviously, the programming is at fault..." - that's just downright disrespectful.
 
Tone Deaf @ Sun Mar 01 said:
Nothing that has been stated here is entirely incorrect. However, there is another side to it that I find interesting.

When I buy a car, I know that there was a team of designers that spent months if not years pouring their heart and soul into the design of that automobile. But if after I've purchased it, as the consumer, I can count on being able to take it back to the dealership to have it serviced if something is not working as I expect. And I expect to be treated with respect, even if the problem is user error.

Can you imagine how bizarre it would be if when I took it in for service, a designer came to the counter and started ranting at me that I don't know what the hell I'm talking about, and that I'm clearly a shitty driver and must be doing it wrong, and do I have any idea how much time they spent designing it?

But yet ,here, that behavior is perfectly acceptable from library developers. If you ask me, some of them either need to hire some PR folks to handle their public interactions, or take a page from Eric from Spectrasonics. Venture on over to Amazon and you shouldn't have to search too hard to find an exchange of comments between Eric and a customer during which Eric showed amazing patience and professionalism with this guy, who truly only had an axe to grind.
Click to expand...


Not wishing to flog the proverbial dead horse, but the thread that this one relates to showed cases where old versions of the software were being use, and where a user configurable option was not switched off. In those circumstances it is understandable that the developer wants to defend their product, when it is being made to look substandard, when it is nothing of the sort
 
kb123 @ Sun Mar 01 said:
Tone Deaf @ Sun Mar 01 said:
Nothing that has been stated here is entirely incorrect. However, there is another side to it that I find interesting.

When I buy a car, I know that there was a team of designers that spent months if not years pouring their heart and soul into the design of that automobile. But if after I've purchased it, as the consumer, I can count on being able to take it back to the dealership to have it serviced if something is not working as I expect. And I expect to be treated with respect, even if the problem is user error.

Can you imagine how bizarre it would be if when I took it in for service, a designer came to the counter and started ranting at me that I don't know what the hell I'm talking about, and that I'm clearly a shitty driver and must be doing it wrong, and do I have any idea how much time they spent designing it?

But yet ,here, that behavior is perfectly acceptable from library developers. If you ask me, some of them either need to hire some PR folks to handle their public interactions, or take a page from Eric from Spectrasonics. Venture on over to Amazon and you shouldn't have to search too hard to find an exchange of comments between Eric and a customer during which Eric showed amazing patience and professionalism with this guy, who truly only had an axe to grind.
Click to expand...


Not wishing to flog the proverbial dead horse, but the thread that this one relates to showed cases where old versions of the software were being use, and where a user configurable option was not switched off. In those circumstances it is understandable that the developer wants to defend their product, when it is being made to look substandard, when it is nothing of the sort
Click to expand...

I'm aware of that. But the immediate tendency to "defend their product" rather than "educate their customer" is what is at the crux of the matter to me. Swallow your freakin' pride and take advantage of the opportunity to educate your customer, while simultaneously showing your potential customers that you are approachable and are willing to help.

Can you not see the subtle, yet impactful difference here?
 
jleckie @ Mon Mar 02 said:
josejherring @ Sun Mar 01 said:
Some people aren't that good and they take it out on their products.
Click to expand...

This.

But I do think some devs need thicker skin. (which is surprising they don't on forums like these as many devs are composers themselves and if THAT line of work doesn't help grow a thick skin, nothing will imo). ^>|
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I agree. Not to rag on anyone in particular, but it seems to me that this is just part of the age old problem; that composers are often lousy businessmen and women. As most of the developers are also composers, it's not surprising that they take offence when someone publicly insults their work. Someone with a good business head would be able to let it go, and play the politician, but for a composer, it is a bit like telling a mother (or father, for that matter) that their baby is ugly. No matter what the truth is, no parent wants to hear that. :lol:

East West has got it right, in my view. Hire a 3rd party to field such things on forums that you can't control.

D
 
Tone Deaf @ Sun Mar 01 said:
kb123 @ Sun Mar 01 said:
Tone Deaf @ Sun Mar 01 said:
Nothing that has been stated here is entirely incorrect. However, there is another side to it that I find interesting.

When I buy a car, I know that there was a team of designers that spent months if not years pouring their heart and soul into the design of that automobile. But if after I've purchased it, as the consumer, I can count on being able to take it back to the dealership to have it serviced if something is not working as I expect. And I expect to be treated with respect, even if the problem is user error.

Can you imagine how bizarre it would be if when I took it in for service, a designer came to the counter and started ranting at me that I don't know what the hell I'm talking about, and that I'm clearly a shitty driver and must be doing it wrong, and do I have any idea how much time they spent designing it?

But yet ,here, that behavior is perfectly acceptable from library developers. If you ask me, some of them either need to hire some PR folks to handle their public interactions, or take a page from Eric from Spectrasonics. Venture on over to Amazon and you shouldn't have to search too hard to find an exchange of comments between Eric and a customer during which Eric showed amazing patience and professionalism with this guy, who truly only had an axe to grind.
Click to expand...


Not wishing to flog the proverbial dead horse, but the thread that this one relates to showed cases where old versions of the software were being use, and where a user configurable option was not switched off. In those circumstances it is understandable that the developer wants to defend their product, when it is being made to look substandard, when it is nothing of the sort
Click to expand...

I'm aware of that. But the immediate tendency to "defend their product" rather than "educate their customer" is what is at the crux of the matter to me. Swallow your freakin' pride and take advantage of the opportunity to educate your customer, while simultaneously showing your potential customers that you are approachable and are willing to help.

Can you not see the subtle, yet impactful difference here?
Click to expand...

With respect, the developers team went out of their way to educate those with issues on that very thread in the face of a great deal of hostility. Perhaps you should read the thread and the summary made by admin at the end?
 
Also getting in before the lock (maybe):

It's either "Sample Talk", the free, unfettered, occasionally rude but fairly civil place in general, open to all to air their opinions, or it isn't. The recent lock and general mod statements have set clear limits, and now, sadly , this is a different place than it once was.

Ladies and Gentlemen, feel free to say anything about a product or a set of products, as long as it's positive.

I've been a vociferous advocate for and steady contributor to this forum for 6 years, and I'm very sadly disconcerted to see things go this way. I feel the locked thread had some unfortunate moments but actually cleared up some important things for me. If the reaction to reasonably (subjective, I know) civil criticism is to be scorn, locking and banning and developers are to be treated as sacred cows, I guess I'll watch from the wings. Frederick, please PM if you'd like me to leave completely, as I'd certainly honor that request. It's your forum.
 
I was actually really surprised by the other thread. But not because of any rudeness on the part of anyone with anything critical to say. It was those that jumped to the defence of Spitfire that I found rather over the top.

Anyone with any criticism was reasonably polite as far as I could tell. While there was some user error, so what? Patrick repeatedly said he loved Spitfire products and was heavily invested in them, and also freely admitted that he was wrong and did not fully understand the programming that was causing his problems. Guy was perfectly reasonable as well. In fact just about everyone with any criticism were extremely respectful and also in the same posts heaped praise on them, except for the one person had an unfortunate opinion that much of the content of Earth sounded similar and was rather blunt about it. Again so what, it was his opinion. It wasn't a commercial announcement thread. Can people not give their honest impression of a library? Sometimes negative impressions are caused by user error and when publicly brought up, they are usually set straight. That's a good thing as well. The whole thing was actually kind of productive and wouldn't have been controversial if no tempers or defensiveness had reared up.

I'm sorry but the defensiveness and lashing out of those defending Spitfire was the only unfortunate part. Spitfire themselves weren't too bad, although somewhat passive aggressive as usual when criticized. But they are passionate, oh well. It happens. Nobody is perfect. While I happen to think the approach that Mr. Persing or the Cinesamples guys takes is remarkable (in that they are always very positive towards criticism and try to help), I realize that not everyone has that kind of patience and it's fully up to them how they engage with folks. Spitfire did help out (though they could have been less grumpy about it), and the great thing about an issue getting sussed out on a forum is that if someone else has the same perceived problem, they may find the thread and solve it themselves without even needing to bother support! I always say this is what's great about forums. I guess people should grateful it was only locked and not deleted. That would have been actually disgusting.
 
You guys seem to think that when somebody becomes a developer they're all of sudden Apple or in this thread a car manufacture. It's two or three extremely overworked guys behind these products. To expect them to have a polished business model to handle all complaints is too much.

EP doesn't post any more so why bring him up? And, I've seen him get testy with plenty of customers. Cinesamples has come down on me for criticizing (and for good reason) that horrendous woodwind library they made. They take that shit personally. I understand why. They've got a lot riding on these products and the rep of the products is everything to them.

I think a better way to handle it in this community is just take it private. PM works wonders. You talk to these people personally and every one of them with rare exception is a decent human being trying his best, sometimes succeeding and sometimes not.
 
josejherring @ Sun Mar 01 said:
You guys seem to think that when somebody becomes a developer they're all of sudden Apple or in this thread a car manufacture. It's two or three extremely overworked guys behind these products. To expect them to have a polished business model to handle all complaints is too much.

EP doesn't post any more so why bring him up? And, I've seen him get testy with plenty of customers. Cinesamples has come down on me for criticizing (and for good reason) that horrendous woodwind library they made. They take that s@#t personally. I understand why. They've got a lot riding on these products and the rep of the products is everything to them.

I think a better way to handle it in this community is just take it private. PM works wonders. You talk to these people personally and every one of them with rare exception is a decent human being trying his best, sometimes succeeding and sometimes not.
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...you slag Cinesamples in your post and you don't see the irony in reference to the point you started to make??
 
I slanged Cinesamples about a year or more ago. I think they've gotten over it. I don't even think they remember.
 
NYC Composer @ Mon Mar 02 said:
It's either "Sample Talk", the free, unfettered, occasionally rude but fairly civil place in general, open to all to air their opinions, or it isn't. The recent lock and general mod statements have set clear limits, and now, sadly , this is a different place than it once was.

Ladies and Gentlemen, feel free to say anything about a product or a set of products, as long as it's positive.
Click to expand...
This. I'm not sure where people are supposed to go if they're looking for honest, open, unfiltered, unmanaged opinion (and I fully get that opinion can be "wrong"). That was certainly the value to me when I joined this forum and it saved me a bundle of heartache and money as I was able to make informed choices. And it's not even about "good" and "not good" libraries, much more about what suits how I work and personal preference. Must confess I tend to think of our site more as "infomercial" these days.

.
 
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