VEPro & Logic Setup - Is this the best way?

[PeterBaumann]

I'm currently re-doing my full template, which is starting to rack up a vast number of VEPro instances and the channel count is already at 265 just with the Hollywood Orchestra tracks ready to be routed.

I want to be able to achieve the following:
- Ability to separate the outputs for articulations (ie. Longs, Short & FX or Highs, Mediums, Lows) per orchestral section in LPX for printing stems.
- Ability to use a third party channel switcher in the arrange window to switch articulations within these articulation groups.

Previously, I just had all the articulations lumped into one VEPro instance, switching articulations using the scripter and AG Toolkit, but that didn't give me much in the way of options for printing separated stems for longs, shorts & fx.

Individual tracks per articulation type and per instrument - seems to be the only way to have separate output routing depending on the articulation type, and enable individual processing/automation, and have a scripter for the third party articulation switcher (which it needs).
Multi-timbral tracks - tracks can't have separate FX processing, or be routed to different outputs for separating the stems (as far as I can see, anyway), so I don't think this is of much use to me for my intended purpose.
Multi-output plugin of VEPro with auxes added using the '+' symbol in the LPX Mixer - doesn't allow me to add a scripter on the additional channels.

In the images attached, I have my Clarinet FX loaded up in a single instance of VEPro, which then goes to the LPX template where it's routed to a track, which is then sending audio to the Woodwind FX reverb bus and is hooked up ready to print to a Woodwind FX (separated dry & wet) print. Complicated, I know!

Is this the best way to achieve this, or have I missed a trick with the Multi-Timbral/Multi-Output setup?

Click to read more...

 

[PeterBaumann]

4. Articulation Groups (Cubase supports up to 4 Art Groups for example).
AG system supports up to 128 Art Groups powered by the Scripter Text points mode.
• You can insert up to 8 Scripters per Instrument (8 Groups). For example, the 1st Scripter changes the main Articulations, the 2nd Scripter changes the Trumpet Mutes, the 3rd Scripter controls the Trumpet Wah etc.
• You can insert a single Scripter in "Multi Instrument" mode which offers up to 16 Articulation Menus.
You can assign up to 16 Instrument automation lanes to the correspondent Scripter Groups 1-16.
For example, you can insert up to 8 Scripters (Multi mode) which means 128 Art Groups which can be controlled 100% independently.

@A.G - Thanks for your response on my other thread. Am I right in thinking that the articulation groups would work for the Multi-Timbral + Multi-Output setup? Do you have any videos demonstrating this feature? Can't see any on your youtube channel and I'm not 100% exactly how this feature works. Is the group feature only available in the latest version of the AG Art System? I think I only have the version that was released at the end of 2015 (v4?)

 

[A.G]

@A.G I think I only have the version that was released at the end of 2015 (v4?)

You own a very old AG v4. I highly recommend to update to 6.4. For example, I see in the image above that you use text articulation points in "Track" automation mode v4. The track automation
is complicated cause you have to tweak "Latch", "Read" and it is difficult to move the regions, copy regions etc.
In v6.3 the Art text points are "Region" based (like CCs for example). I.e you can shift select all tracks and set them to "Region". When you record MIDI live you have to press record only. The Art Points will be recorded as region automation like the CC for example. You can move the regions, cut, copy without any troubles. The other advantage is the Combo AT+ID (Text points + Art ID) switching. You can use say 70% Text points switching cause it is easier and time saving, but when you need "Divisi" you can switch the bottom point to "Art ID" which will allow you to set different articulations for the divisi Notes. Here is a Video part where I show that:





Here is a Video part below where I demonstrate another "Art Groups" tip. I combine remote Art ID switching which is Group 1 where I switch and record the Note Art IDs. The Scripter records the 2nd Group text points for the Synchron Strings Dynamic types:




Here is another non-voice Video where I demonstrate Art Groups using text points only.





BTW. Art Pro 6 comes with a large online Video tutors powered by an online Navigator.
Mose of the Videos are private Vimeo ones and require a user password.

 

[PeterBaumann]

Thanks again for your detailed reply! The group articulation looks very interesting. It doesn't allow me to control multi-timbral instruments though does it as only the main channel that VEPro is routed to (Ch1) can have a scripter added to it, is that correct?

I've never explored the region vs track text articulation, but I seem to be able to do this already with my version? Do later versions do something different from this?

 

[A.G]

Thanks again for your detailed reply! The group articulation looks very interesting. It doesn't allow me to control multi-timbral instruments though does it as only the main channel that VEPro is routed to (Ch1) can have a scripter added to it, is that correct?

I show the Art Groups tip using a single Instrument (Ch.All) in the Videos above.
Example: You create a main Art Preset in AG Editor which will switch the Articulations of say Sample Modeling brass instruments: Trumpet 1 Ch.1, Trumpet 2 Ch.2, Trombone Ch.3 etc. Each Multi Timbral track is assigned to Scripter 1 correspondent instrument.
You create another Multi preset in AG Editor for the brass "Mutes" and transfer that preset to Scripter 2 inserted in the 2nd MIDI FX slot. You must assign a 2nd automation lane per Muti track (1-16) and set the 2nd lane to Scripter 2 (Mutes). As you see you can have up to 8 Group/lanes to control various Instrument specifics.

I've never explored the region vs track text articulation, but I seem to be able to do this already with my version? Do later versions do something different from this?

I do believe that you can switch the Scripter to Region automation. However you are limited to draw Art points using Region based automation mode using the pencil tool in Logic. To record real Art Text Points as region automation (like CC) you need AG Art Text Remote Control which comes with Art Pro 6 for example.
The other Art Pro 6 advantages are well described in the other thread you posted here.

 

[Dewdman42]

Scripter will be once per instrument, in front of the instrument. That will work regardless of whether you are using multi-out auxes to return the audio. But all midi channels for each vepro instance have to funnel through one midifx stack, meaning your scripts generally have to be smart enough to distinguish each midi channel and handle each channel appropriately. One giant script handling all midi channels used in each vepro instance.

i will write more when I get back to my computer

 

[Dewdman42]

I'm currently re-doing my full template, which is starting to rack up a vast number of VEPro instances and the channel count is already at 265 just with the Hollywood Orchestra tracks ready to be routed.

Based on the fact you are using mostly Hollywood Orch, I am guessing that you are probably not able to use many keyswitches and need to put each articulation on its own midi channel. You might want to check out this free Scripter script I made, this is almost golden use case for it:

https://www.logicprohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=45&t=143326

Make sure you also grab the AU3 template that is referenced there also, which is ideal for setting up large VePro templates. works great together with the above channelizer script. Its free.

I want to be able to achieve the following:
- Ability to separate the outputs for articulations (ie. Longs, Short & FX or Highs, Mediums, Lows) per orchestral section in LPX for printing stems.

As I mentioned earlier, that is no problem. Scripter is completely separate from the audio. In this scenario you have one single multi-instrument (VePro) that receives numerous midi channels, and then you can optionally return up to 25 stereo returns from it as audio. All the midi funnels through a single midifx stack before hitting the VePro plugin which sends it all to a VePro instance, so the script has to be smart enough to distinguish each separate source midi and do all the right things. The above mentioned channelizer script is smart enough to do that BTW. All that Script-filtered midi will then be sent to VePro and the audio comes back however you want, mixed to stereo, separate stems, whatever you want. Scripter doesn't care. each instance of VePro requires one VePro plugin in LogicPro, and you can put scripter in front of that. If you only put one instrument per instance, then your script only has to handle one instrument. If you use larger VePro instance with multiple instruments, then again...all the midi for that instance funnels through a single Scripter script.

- Ability to use a third party channel switcher in the arrange window to switch articulations within these articulation groups.

If you are using AG, you will need to ask Ivan for support, I can't comment about the details. it does use its own generated script, but I am not entirely sure how feasible it is to handle many source channels feeding a single large instance, but I'm pretty sure Ivan is going to respond here momentarily to tell us that it can cure cancer and everything else, so check with him and maybe it can, but if you use his solution, you don't need the free script I mentioned above.

Previously, I just had all the articulations lumped into one VEPro instance, switching articulations using the scripter and AG Toolkit, but that didn't give me much in the way of options for printing separated stems for longs, shorts & fx.

As mentioned earlier, you should be able to print the stems, the midi related articulation stuff is completely separate...all the midi funnels through one pipeline..the audio comes back however you want. That should work with AG too, I see no problem there.

Individual tracks per articulation type and per instrument - seems to be the only way to have separate output routing depending on the articulation type, and enable individual processing/automation, and have a scripter for the third party articulation switcher (which it needs).

Nope. You don't need separate source tracks. If you like to work that way then you certainly can, but then you really don't need any articulation management system at all if you work that way.

Multi-timbral tracks - tracks can't have separate FX processing, or be routed to different outputs for separating the stems (as far as I can see, anyway), so I don't think this is of much use to me for my intended purpose.

See above, yes they can. Audio is separate from MIDI.

Multi-output plugin of VEPro with auxes added using the '+' symbol in the LPX Mixer - doesn't allow me to add a scripter on the additional channels.

See above. Not a problem

In the images attached, I have my Clarinet FX loaded up in a single instance of VEPro, which then goes to the LPX template where it's routed to a track, which is then sending audio to the Woodwind FX reverb bus and is hooked up ready to print to a Woodwind FX (separated dry & wet) print. Complicated, I know!

Is this the best way to achieve this, or have I missed a trick with the Multi-Timbral/Multi-Output setup?

You lost me a little bit on what you were trying to do there...

But anyway, if you're using LogicPro 10.4.8 and VePro7, then I recommend you grab this template to start out:

https://www.logicprohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=143416

If you read up those two above forum posts about the template and the channelizer script I think you can figure it out.

But in general, you can have up to 127 source midi tracks, each on a unique midi channel/port, feeding a single AU3 instrument plugin. In this case, use the VePro7 AU3 plugin. Then you can have up to 127 source midi tracks, each on a unique channel, feeding that instance. However you want. You can put articulations on their own track or you can use a third party party scripter to channelize your events into VePro in order to put each articulation listening on a different channel in PLAY, etc. . That is all entirely before any audio is rendered. By default the audio comes back as stereo, but you can hit the + button and return up to 25 stereo returns from each VePro Instance. You have to configure inside VePro to match it, etc. All of those 127 source midi tracks will funnel through one single scripter script...whether its AG or the free channelizer one...same thing. The audio can come back however you wish.

 

[Ashermusic]

Well I have great respect for Dewdman42, II recommend that until Apple fully supports AU 3, keeping it out of your templates.

Templates are too important to build your workflow around elements that are not. Just my opinion of course.

 

[Dewdman42]

AU3 is working fine though. Also Apple already supports it. Vsl is labeling their plugin as beta but it works fine

 

[dgburns]

AU3 is working fine though. Also Apple already supports it. Vsl is labeling their plugin as beta but it works fine

Is there currently any way to create a bunch of instrument objects say, 16x port 1 and 16x port 2? I am copying the 16x port 1 instrument objects in the environment, then I need to manually assign them to port 2 one at a time. It does not appear that you can select all the 16 channels and switch them to port 2 in one shot over in the inspector. Very tedious work. You come across this, or have a workaround ??

 

[Dewdman42]

Will respond better tomorrow, but the easiest thing is to start with the template mentioned earlier and delete the tracks you don’t need. I’ve already done the grunt work for you. Otherwise I will find later the manual steps for creating lots of tracks yourself. It’s best to not do it in the environment so far that I have found. Will say more later, away from computer today

 

[Ashermusic]

AU3 is working fine though. Also Apple already supports it. Vsl is labeling their plugin as beta but it works fine

The Logic developers have not fully implemented it, and told me, unofficially, that they don't think it's quite "there" yet.

 

[Dewdman42]

So they unofficially don’t support it even though it has officially been part of logicpro for several years now? Heheh. Whatever works for you but working fine here.

 

[A.G]

The Logic developers have not fully implemented it, and told me, unofficially, that they don't think it's quite "there" yet.

This time I will join Jay. AU3 is still a Beta and it must be finished as expected.

We at Audio Grocery developed quite enough products related to VSL such as "VEP Multi Instance" etc so we get a lot of questions about VEP & AG systems.

Here is an example, where a user points a specific AU3 problem which is not solved yet:

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Dear AG,
Thanks a million for creating these highly useful products!

I’m writing to see if you could provide insight about a configuration issue with this software package and specifically the Generic Logic Pro X template instantiated with AU3 versions of VEP inside — the VEP 7 AU3 version sends midi clock from Logic to any active instance of VEP Server, however any plug-ins instantiated in any active VEP Server appear unable to receive midi clock. This is a non-issue in the AU version of VEP.

Do you know if there’s a workaround for above or is this part of the reason VEP AU3 is in BETA?
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

Hi,
It is not AG issue. Please contact the VSL support.
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

Dear AG,
Circling back with an update from VSL — as I suspected it has to do with VSL awaiting Apple to develop AU3 spec…

 

[Dewdman42]

Ok midi clock, I never need it but good to know. What else doesn’t work?

 

[A.G]

What else doesn’t work?

Ask Apple .

 

[Dewdman42]

So you are only aware of that one problem?

 

[Dewdman42]

Is there currently any way to create a bunch of instrument objects say, 16x port 1 and 16x port 2? I am copying the 16x port 1 instrument objects in the environment, then I need to manually assign them to port 2 one at a time. It does not appear that you can select all the 16 channels and switch them to port 2 in one shot over in the inspector. Very tedious work. You come across this, or have a workaround ??

Alright, back to my computer today. So the template I referenced earlier..and will link again here...is a forum post that has some instructions for how to manually create more than 16 tracks across multiple ports. Its kind of a wordy forum post admittedly, which I apologize for that, I'm prone to that...but anyway...you should be able to see some simple instructions in there for how to go about doing what will work with LPX 10.4.8.

It does not involve using the environment at all, it can be done most easily by just creating the tracks directly, But there is a little musical chairs move you have to make each time you hit the channel 16 and need to bump up to the next port. Its not that hard, just something to be aware of. You can create 8 ports worth of 127 tracks in a minute or two if you follow those instructions...

Or just use the template I provided and remove the tracks you don't need.

Let me know if you have any questions about it.

I have updated that page also to reflect the noted current problem with AU3 not handling host sync/transport over to VePro properly. Not sure if that is VSL or Apple problem and it doesn't effect me most of the time, but it might for someone that is trying to run say an arp or something inside VePro, in which case they should use AU2. Most orch work does not require that, however.

VEP7 AU3 Template and Instructions

Quote Note - this article has been updated since its original post to reflect software updates from both Apple and VSL since then. Summary LogicPro has historically limited to only using one midi port while connecting to Vepro using AU2. That is a limitation of AU2. This limited LogicPro to only ...

www.logicprohelp.com

 

[Nick Batzdorf]

AU3 is working fine though.

Not on my machine.

 

[Dewdman42]

why not? or I should say, how not?