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The highs and lows of doing demos for a sound library

Dear Villain

Senior Member
I recently saw the thread in this sub-forum about working for free, and wanted to share my own experience. The need for me to share this story ultimately boils down to a desire to vent and seek closure for what was a negative experience. The story is obviously from my perspective, but I have absolutely nothing to hide and will share details as accurately as possible, including elements of the story that paint me in a bad light, not just the "other guy." Fair warning: it will be a long read.

A few years ago, I was posting and sharing my music on a forum belonging to a V.I. library company. I had shared my music there for years, and was met with the usual mix of fans and critics that most of us are used to dealing with. There were a handful of negative/critical individuals, taking swipes at not just me, but several other very well established composers. This negative energy led to numerous arguments/ad hominem attacks, etc. that ultimately started drying up the activity on that forum. I left the forum for a long while, and upon my return, sharing my newest work, I was PM'd by the company's marketing manager. He expressed a lot of positive sentiment re. my music, and even went so far as to tell me to ignore some of the naysayers as they were simply "jealous". He then offered me an opportunity to write a demo for a new library. Well, this entire exchange was too good to be true, and I immediately accepted, on the contingency that I would receive a NFR license for the library upon completion of my work.

Fast forward a bit, and the company was thrilled with my compositions. Over the next year, I did many other demos, for other libraries they were offering, under the same agreement. Along the way, most of the communication with this individual was professional, courteous, and timely. Occasionally, it would take some time upon submitting a work to get feedback, but generally, things went smoothly. I always delivered more work than I believe was expected, and did so in such a timely manner, that the individual praised how fast I work, and how "easy to work with" I am.

At this point, I should mention: I never asked for any money, and there are two reasons for this. First, I was quite happy initially receiving licenses to libraries in exchange for my work. I saw this as a form of payment, which of course it is considering the value of the libraries. Second, I don't "need" the money. It is true that I am a full-time composer of classical music, and that I earn what one would expect to earn pursuing the type of music I do. I am financially secure for other reasons (no, not a trust fund baby! lol)

My motivation to continue working with this company was simple: I enjoyed the opportunity to showcase their libraries, of which I think highly, and I appreciated what I believed was good exposure for my own composition. Finally, I had a belief that after a certain point of delivering quality work, I'd solidify future opportunities with the company and become a more permanent fixture in the demo creation scene.

Things started taking a turn for the worse when the communication became less reliable. One particular piece was not up to their standards and I made significant changes. The marketing manager said the piece was much better, but would need approval from the company head. A period of weeks went by, with repeated requests for feedback...the usual song and dance response, with a non-comital answer. I let that one go.

Another demo, and I was told point blank: "we won't be featuring this one...we like your classical music pieces moreso than this style." Fair enough! No harm, no foul.

Next, I do some video demos, which take some time, of course. The marketing manager likes them, but wants changes made to the fonts, etc. At this point, I start to feel that I'm doing an awful lot of work and the "payoff" is not commensurate. I express in a friendly and honest way exactly what I stated above: I have happily enjoyed working for the company based on a license exchange agreement, but going forward, would welcome an opportunity for paid work. I said that even though I don't need the money, a part of me feels guilty promoting the idea of composers always willing to work in exchange for non-monetary compensation. Of course, there is value to the libraries, but after a certain point, it's fair to say that getting paid for significant hours of work might benefit composers who need to pay bills and put food on tables. I also suspected that the company paid other demo makers, some of whom are very well known. In fact, I communicated with a composer that flat out acknowledged that he used to be paid by the company, before they started only offering libraries as they had more than enough willing composers to accept this agreement. Anyway, returning to the story, the manager kindly expresses his appreciation for my work, but that the company cannot pay me. Fair enough...we part ways amicably for a period of time.

A year later, the manager emails me that he loves a new piece I created using their libraries (not as a demo, but simply as my own work to share on the forum) and offers me a free library, if I'd allow them to share the video I made. I accept this kind gesture and select one of their less-expensive libraries, simply because I hadn't done this project for them in the first place and didn't want to be greedy. In any event, such a positive interaction with the manager made me "fall in love" with them again.

I then was asked, after sharing a large-scale work on their forum again (simply for my own pleasure, once again) to create a video for it. I did so, and sent it to the manager within 3 days of the request. It never received a response, nor was the file even downloaded by the manager.

Another moment of frustration, having spent 3 days creating the video for a piece and not even getting a response. But I let this slide also...

Then, the most recent and "final straw" experience occurred, when I posted congratulations on their newest library offering, stating that it would be perfect for a piece of mine and that I was contemplating purchasing it.

Literally, within an hour of posting on their forum my message of congratulations, I received an email from the manager, suggesting that they'd be happy to provide me the library in exchange for a video demo. I was shocked because we hadn't communicated in over a year and I felt that my work with them was done for the reasons listed above...but it sure does feel good to receive such a message and to feel "wanted" as a composer. And so, against my own "stand" I had taken to insist on pay, I went to work again. Yes, totally my fault on this one.

I spent four days putting the piece together. My wife, who does a lot of my mixing/mastering, also put a day's work in. Remember, I'm "retired" from the ol' 9-5 and can start composing/working at the drop of a hat (barring family responsibilities, and the always massive quantity of in-progress projects). When the company comes knocking, I have always gone to work immediately.

I submitted the project using the usual transfer method, which documents receipt of the project when the other party downloads it. It is downloaded the next morning. No response though, even though most often in the past, the manager would reply within hours of downloading. 3 days pass, and I'm curious, so I email the manager on a Saturday morning. He replies within minutes stating he "must have missed it" and to send it again (even though it was confirmed that he downloaded it.)

I send it again and simply state in my email: "no problem. It may not be what you're looking for, as we didn't discuss any details up front. Just let me know if you can use it or not." I gave him an easy out to reject my piece, as I was afraid he simply didn't want to dismiss me overtly (as people would rather ignore things than state "no"). 4 more days pass, and no response to the follow-up.

I'm definitely angry now, and I even emailed a fellow composer and he had similar experiences with the company in the past: communication wasn't always their top priority with composers like us. As a final "act of frustration", I posted the piece to my youtube channel with a disclaimer at the beginning expressing that the piece was written for the library, but they didn't find it satisfactory, and so I was sharing it on my own channel instead, as I didn't want the piece to "go to waste."

Within an hour of posting the piece, I receive an email from the manager, stating (paraphrasing here): I just got back from the hospital as I'm having surgery soon. I've enclosed a license for the library. I'm a little confused by your post on the forum, but I guess everybody is the king of their own universe. I replied to him that I don't want a license for their library, wished him well for his surgery, and agreed that everybody is the king of their own universe :)

The funny thing is, he was posting every day regularly on his own company forum, responding to comments. He also responded to my negative video disclaimer within an hour, having just "returned from the hospital." But over the one week period prior, no communication...downloaded the file and then claimed to have missed it, etc. etc.

(continued in next post...yes, it's that bloody long!)
 
So, why the heck am I airing my dirty laundry? Simple: I need to vent. I need to express my frustration with a company that I believe is incredibly good at what they do, with incredible employees, the manager included. I need to let people know that even good working relationships can fall apart. In this case, I believe I was taken for granted. I believe I devalued myself in their eyes by constantly agreeing to come back and "work for free" (yes, I acknowledge libraries are a form of payment, but in light of my stand earlier on, I probably should have never agreed to do anything further on the original terms...my bad). I also suspect that they take good care of their "A List composers" and see people like myself as interchangeable/disposable...after all, there's no cost to them to ask people to do demos. If they like it, great. If not, they've not had to pay a penny for what often amounts to days of work at a time.

Anyway, they're still a great company. I still love their products. I still appreciate the incredible work ethic and kindness of the manager. I chalk up this final interaction as one of "feelings getting hurt on both sides." I did take a shot with my video post, but I also know that my post was the only reason I even got a response. And as I listed above, this was certainly not the first time communication had failed.

For those that want to earn a living in the business, following my approach is not recommended. Fight for what you're worth. Set out the terms up front. Communicate professionally and follow through on any actions you have chosen to take. Respect is a two way street. If you feel disrespected, speak up, and try to hash it out. If the other party is unwilling, then you know what you're worth to them...walk away. Thankfully, I'm not actually in the business of earning a living from my music, and that may be why I'm actually contributing to the problem of composers having a hard time getting fair pay for their work. I've learned a valuable lesson here, and hope that this experience will help others to frame their work in a way that's fair and meaningful to all.

Dave
 
Yeah, it seems that VSL is not very generous to many of their demo composers. And, to air a completely personal opinion, to my ears the quality of their demos in many cases trails a bit behind the standards that other developers have set.
 
Well, you lost me at "Second, I don't "need" the money." :) , but anyways.. I have made demos for a few developers, including EastWest and it was always more of a fun thing, motivated more by an interest in what they were doing and new techniques they were developing than the actual license.

On a professional level demo composing for a copy of the library doesn't make much sense if you think about it - since it's so little money compared to a "regular" payment and when you are paid you can actually choose what to do with the money. It's also not really a good way to start or pursue a career, since it's ultra-niche. So once you see it more as a fun thing, I'd say it's probably best to take this a little bit less seriously and move on. I think it seems so important given that you are also looking for recognition here ("being wanted as a composer" as you say), maybe there is a good way for you to find another audience that enjoys your music.
 
Hmmm. I expected something really bad, but it sounds that you've had perfectly healthy, respectful relation with dev and got a bit angry because communication was sometimes off? It happens. Your emails are not the only e-mails in someone else's mail box. It doesn't mean you are treated as "interchangeable/disposable".

In my day job I send a lot of emails worldwide. Sometimes people wait a week or so till I respond. Sometimes I wait a week or so for response. And sometimes I forgot about things or not get any info from someone as well. It happens. Hell, sometimes I can swear that I did something, but I didn't. Not because of ill intentions. Just because we are people.
 
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Is this the usual deal for sample library demos? A free product in exchange for a track? I often wondered..
 
Is this the usual deal for sample library demos? A free product in exchange for a track? I often wondered..
I’ve done quite a number of demos over the years, and that was always the deal, although some smaller one-person operations might say, “choose any of our libraries as an extra thank you”. No money was ever exchanged.
 
I always found this a travesty and don't understand why composers agree to work for free in exchange for NFRs. Yep you are working for free! The sample library is the product you need to demonstrate so of course you must receive a copy either way and STILL GET PAID imo. Don't fall for it! That's what happens when we put companies on a pedestal and glorify them... they will take advantage of starstruck naive people in any way that they can! It's about ethics. Not saying all devs do this but the ones that do... shame on you, hypocrites imo. Pay your composers and content creators!
 
Is this the usual deal for sample library demos? A free product in exchange for a track? I often wondered..
Very likely that is the most common, yes.
I know writers who do get paid for demos, some who volunteer their pieces for nothing (though their name does get included in the track title), and others who receive free copies of the library in exchange for demos.
It's "all of the above", but will come down to the company and who's writing the demo.
 
Not saying all devs do this but the ones that do... shame on you, hypocrites imo. Pay your composers and content creators!
Why? Libraries can cost a lot and working composer can decide if this library is worth more than the time he/she needs to write a piece. If more -> grab a copy and do it. If not -> grab cash or walk away. From OP stand point it sounds he gave from him a bit more then he should. But he was ok-ish with that. So it's not company fault. This is business not charity. I'm not working composer, but it applies to all businesses. Cheap, young freelancers are issue only if you are bad at your work. For example I could score a movie for 100$. But you will get crap, not a score (if you pay me 10k it would be slightly smaller crap ;D).

Yep you are working for free!
No. You are working for goods / tools that may help you in your further work. And I'm sure it is specified beforehand and not some dev trap.
 
Why? Libraries can cost a lot and working composer can decide if this library is worth more than the time he/she needs to write a piece. If more -> grab a copy and do it. If not -> grab cash or walk away. From OP stand point it sounds he gave from him a bit more then he should. But he was ok-ish with that. So it's not company fault. This is business not charity. I'm not working composer, but it applies to all businesses. Cheap, young freelancers are issue only if you are bad at your work. For example I could score a movie for 100$. But you will get crap, not a score (if you pay me 10k it would be slightly smaller crap ;D).


No. You are working for goods / tools that may help you in your further work. And I'm sure it is specified beforehand and not some dev trap.
Idk. Yeah the libraries cost $200-$1000, but you don't actually EARN money by taking the demo gig. You save a potential purchase. Then you work and spend hours earning back what you would have spent on the library. Yes, the cost of the library MIGHT outdo the hours put in, but you are not a penny richer. You just saved yourself the cost of a library that you might never have gotten otherwise. It's like retail employees getting paid in gift cards to the store they work at

*edit: removed the wink face, it makes me so mad to see it. I'm so sorry I used it.
 
Why? Libraries can cost a lot and working composer can decide if this library is worth more than the time he/she needs to write a piece. If more -> grab a copy and do it. If not -> grab cash or walk away. From OP stand point it sounds he gave from him a bit more then he should. But he was ok-ish with that. So it's not company fault. This is business not charity. I'm not working composer, but it applies to all businesses. Cheap, young freelancers are issue only if you are bad at your work. For example I could score a movie for 100$. But you will get crap, not a score (if you pay me 10k it would be slightly smaller crap ;D).


No. You are working for goods / tools that may help you in your further work. And I'm sure it is specified beforehand and not some dev trap.
Sure my friend, this is all down to the composer knowing what is best for him-her, not trying to shame or judge anyone here, I understand how these things work when you are struggling but my point is that the developers should always pay composers real world money to write demos or create video content for them. It's a moral thing. The library is a pre-requisite and nothing but a bonus imo. At least offer some cash compensation or let the composer sell the NFR? I never saw a sign at the local grocery store or drug dealer saying "We accept VSL samples" XD
 
Yes, the composer can accept the library as payment. They can also accept no library as payment and just do it for free. It doesn't mean they should. And the developers would be wrong to offer such a deal. I think that's why people get upset. The developers should not be offering giftcards as payment for composers to accept. Devs should offer paid compensation. If they can't afford it and are just starting out, sure. But if that is the case, your sample library wouldn't even be that expensive?
 
There are companies who pay you for your demo work, not in licenses but in actual money. Others don't. The only definition for a good deal is that it results in a win-win and both sides are happy. and that has nothing to do with moral at all. let's be honest, that type of moral is a slippery slope. do you know a single e.g. musician person who didn't do _once_ something creative for somebody else and received a "creative" compensation? I don't. do you know a single craftsmen who didn't "help out" in his spare time and received something other than money in return? I don't.

@Dear Villain the amount of work that goes into a good demo is never worth the money (or the compensation you get). it's a thing you better do for an intrinsic reason.
 
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Remember, I'm "retired" from the ol' 9-5 and can start composing/working at the drop of a hat (barring family responsibilities, and the always massive quantity of in-progress projects). When the company comes knocking, I have always gone to work immediately.
This is exactly why I keep my regular career in place. I have the liberty of deciding who I'm willing to work for, and who I'm not. And at my point in the game, I don't need to work for peanuts just because I have to pay bills.
 
@Dear Villain the amount of work that goes into a good demo is never worth the money (or the compensation you get). it's a thing you better do for an intrinsic reason.
For sure, babylonwaves. My post articulates the reasons for choosing to work with them, and my reasons for stopping. Money was never the underlying motivator. However, I place a great deal of importance on courtesy, respect, and appreciation for one's efforts, and will always work harder when those elements are present.
 
This is exactly why I keep my regular career in place. I have the liberty of deciding who I'm willing to work for, and who I'm not. And at my point in the game, I don't need to work for peanuts just because I have to pay bills.
As I mentioned, I'm in my early 40s, but retired from a day job. I did the whole, "make my fortune young" thing, so that I could be able to pursue music on my terms. Gigs like these demos were never about making money, but when I started to feel the relationship breaking down, I recognized that the other party probably had very little respect for me and my work, precisely because I was so often willing to do it for nothing. That's my fault for agreeing, and why I'm sharing the story so others don't blindly expect that their efforts will always be appreciated and/or lead to better opportunities. That is all.
 
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