1. Chr!s

    Chr!s Active Member

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    May 27, 2018
    Why are you more concerned with Russia, which you concede there is no direct evidence of collusion between the Trump administration and The Kremlin, than you are with the fact that Israel spies on America more than any of their own allies?

    No, but if you're concerned about Russian infiltration, surely you have a better case here to be more anti-Obama then anti-Trump?
     
  2. woodsdenis

    woodsdenis Senior Member

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    Any evidence, or lack of it, will be in Mueller's report which as you know isn't out yet. Everything else is circumstantial as far as implicating Trump himself, but what has been exposed so far stinks to high heaven and directly implicates people right at the heart of Trump world. Any prosecutor will tell you circumstantial evidence convicts felons all the time. Things are beginning to unwind at a rapid pace now.
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2019
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  3. Kony

    Kony Senior Member

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    I'm not. Spying on the US makes sense since the US has more intel of interest to any country. Germany was caught spying on the UK recently. Allies spying on allies is not new.
     
  4. Kony

    Kony Senior Member

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    No - I conceded that there is not yet any direct evidence of collusion with Trump himself, but there is with his administration.
     
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  5. Kony

    Kony Senior Member

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    I am in this context - until evidence emerges of direct collusion to usurp democracy. But if you can point to any evidence of Obama publicly supporting Putin over his own intelligence agencies, I'd like to see it....

    In another context, I would be considered more a supporter of Obama based on his social welfare and environmental policies.
     
  6. Chr!s

    Chr!s Active Member

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    Good god man, multiquote.

    So why shouldn't the US instead impose sanctions on Israel instead of more on Russia like Hilary wanted, and cut off the billions of funding to them?

    Allies who steal from you, aren't allies.

    All of the things you have posted are about how Trump is a Russian puppet because he didn't openly condemn Putin for Russian hacks there is no proof of actually happening.

    The democrats are blaming absolutely everything on Russia. The Yellow Vests are Russia's fault, George Takei sexually assualting people is the act of homophobic Russian bots, etc.
     
  7. OP
    OP
    timprebble

    timprebble Sound designer, Composer, Sound library developer

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  8. Kony

    Kony Senior Member

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    They should
     
  9. Kony

    Kony Senior Member

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    Are you saying that the entire US intelligence community is Democrat?
     
  10. Kony

    Kony Senior Member

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    By the way @Chr!s - thanks for debating without resorting to cheap personal attacks or "fake" soundbites! Seriously, it's refreshing to have a proper debate
     
  11. Kony

    Kony Senior Member

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    Would you have any explanation why Trump had a private meeting with the Russian ambassador in the Oval office - a first for any POTUS
     
  12. Kony

    Kony Senior Member

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    lol - had too much coffee this morning! :shocked:
     
  13. Chr!s

    Chr!s Active Member

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    This is not evidence. It's speculation based on Trump's resistance to the FBI Investigations.

    Which I can hardly blame him for doing given that the FBI's corruption is well known, they've been opposed to Trump since day 1.

    Just for the record for all reading this, I am not clinically depressed. I do not have any plans to shoot myself in the head and then throw myself down an elevator shaft.

    We agree.

    Well, given that there is no actual difference between democrats and republicans in practice: Yes.

    No worries.

    Trump's platform included improved relations with Russia from the beginning. I know that most present in this debate will see that as this "gotcha!" sort of moment, but nobody can really offer any good explanation at this point as to why the Americans and Russians should be enemies. They're still living in the Cold War for some reason.

    As far as I'm aware, private meetings with ambassadors is a common thing among politics in any country.

    I heard that in Russia, there was a lot of support for Trump. Everyone sees this as "Yes that's because their puppet won!"

    Don't you think it's more likely that, even 20 years after the collapse of the soviet union, American presidents basically do nothing but sanction and fight proxy wars with your country for basically no real reason at all, that support for the one candidate who comes along and says "Maybe this is stupid and we should actually forge better relations with Russia than trying to push ourselves into war with them?" is to be expected?

    The Russians were planning on building a pipeline for years, as I recall, that would go through syria and turkey into Europe. That pipeline isn't getting built because of the war in Syria and Iraq.

    Which only happened because the US and Israel insisted on removing those mostly-secular dictators who ran their countries more like actual countries and allowed religious fundamentalists (far worse than those dictators and the US largely supported in the early 00s) to arise and completely destabilize the region and thwart anything that would've been good for the Russian economy.

    But they claim they fought those wars because of "democracy" and WMDs we never found and...stuff
     
  14. OP
    OP
    timprebble

    timprebble Sound designer, Composer, Sound library developer

    "This is not evidence"

    You are correct, but that wasn't my point.
    My point is that the evidence is coming.
    Lets discuss further after Feb 7th, you know, when evidence goes on the record.
     
  15. Kony

    Kony Senior Member

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    Am I correct in saying that this was a first for a POTUS to not have any other American present at the meeting?
     
  16. Kony

    Kony Senior Member

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    My point is that the US intelligence community thinks there is collusion - you stated it was Democrats
     
  17. Kony

    Kony Senior Member

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    Agree wholeheartedly - I really hope that's what's happening here but something tells me it's not. I'd like to be wrong. Having said that, one wonders why the two leaders aren't therefore doing more publicly in terms of strengthening ties.
     
  18. Chr!s

    Chr!s Active Member

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    I don't know, I can't find anything about it unless you posted and I missed it. I also don't really see why it matters, though.

    I'd almost bet money that US politicians have met with Israeli ambassadors with no other Americans present and no one has batted an eyelash. The only reason this is significant to people is because Russia and America were previously on such unfriendly terms that the first would obviously be historic, and second: It's only the people who think Russia is pulling strings that seem worried about this.

    I'm not bothered by private meetings like that.

    The democrats and their supportive media are by far the ones that just won't stop talking about it. So it's mostly the democrats.

    But I stand by the fact that, at this point, there is functionally little difference between Republicans and Democrats.

    Trump is otherwise a garden-variety republican. The only thing that makes him appear unique is that he spoke out against border and economic self-sufficiency issues that other Republicans and certainly Democrats wouldn't because taking a stand against such things is bad for their re-election prospects and pocketbooks.
     
  19. Kony

    Kony Senior Member

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    Russia actually has many pipelines flowing into Europe already:

    As of 2009, Russian natural gas was delivered to Europe through 12 pipelines, of which three were direct pipelines (to Finland, Estonia and Latvia), four through Belarus (to Lithuania and Poland) and five through Ukraine (to Slovakia, Romania, Hungary and Poland).

    Germany's not on that list but relies on 40% of its gas from Russia - and Gazprom controls 35 percent of Europe's gas market. Over the next ten years, Russia will naturally become the world's leading gas supplier whether any other country likes it or not - so I don't think they'll be losing any sleep over any pipelines in the short term, particularly in places like Syria where Genie Energy (Murdoch is on the board) has a major stake - ie in the occupied Golan Heights, which is coincidentally currently being used as staging post for US ops in Syria.

    So to answer an earlier question regarding what is the point of being in Syria, and why shouldn't they withdraw, the answer is the same as why the US is in many other countries around the world - ie strategic control and access to resources. I'm not saying I agree with this realpolitik worldview, just stating how I see it.
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2019
  20. woodsdenis

    woodsdenis Senior Member

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    1. The FBI launched an investigation into the sitting President because they were concerned he might be a Russian spy.


    2. That same sitting President went to great lengths to conceal all records of his face to face mtgs with Putin.

    Does anyone think this is normal ?
     
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