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Consona

Senior Member

What do you think?

Sound-wise it's rather far from what Zimmer/J XL did. They've created pretty coherent soundscape in MoS and BvS and now it starts to disintegrate. Seems like Elfman did not even try to sound close to the previous films. The sound palette and the whole production are very different.

Content wise, huh, he really used Williams' Superman theme from 1978. There goes your movie universe coherence again. MoS, BvS and JL are supposed to be a trilogy. I bet there will be Zimmer's Man of Steel theme somewhere in the movie but Williams' one is from a totally different universe.

I'm really curious how will this vintage style score work next to the epic modern superhero picture. I miss the over-processed sound full of pounding drums already. :grin: It suited the visuals perfectly. This is the kind of a movie where you can go full rock and roll.

But I have to say, I like Elfman's rich harmonic vocabulary and the way he develops pieces. Even thought it does not sound like a DCEU thing, I like Frieds and Foes a lot. :) I'm really looking forward to the rest of the score.
 

AlexanderSchiborr

Senior Member

What do you think?

Sound-wise it's rather far from what Zimmer/J XL did. They've created pretty coherent soundscape in MoS and BvS and now it starts to disintegrate. Seems like Elfman did not even try to sound close to the previous films. The sound palette and the whole production are very different.

Content wise, huh, he really used Williams' Superman theme from 1978. There goes your movie universe coherence again. MoS, BvS and JL are supposed to be a trilogy. I bet there will be Zimmer's Man of Steel theme somewhere in the movie but Williams' one is from a totally different universe.

I'm really curious how will this vintage style score work next to the epic modern superhero picture. I miss the over-processed sound full of pounding drums already. :grin: It suited the visuals perfectly. This is the kind of a movie where you can go full rock and roll.

But I have to say, I like Elfman's rich harmonic vocabulary and the way he develops pieces. Even thought it does not sound like a DCEU thing, I like Frieds and Foes a lot. :) I'm really looking forward to the rest of the score.

The sound and orchestration is nice and great executed. I like the Atmosphere. But honestly..I don´t like the theme at all. It misses for me the "theme". Where is it really..He wrote a bunch of notes going forth and back..reduce this piece to 2 hand Piano..and you have minus the orchestration a not coherent piece in my opinion. I am suprised how bad written this theme ist. Sorry to say, but that is my opinion on Dannys Work..a bit strange because I like his older works a lot. There is no red thread throughout the piece. When it would be underscore..allright..hit and miss but for a theme..this is tragically bad for my taste.
 
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John Busby

Musician/Composer
tragically bad for my taste.
i wouldn't say tragically bad just yet, it may fit the picture perfectly
but on it's own it's not that memorable i would say, not compared to some of his previous work and next to Zimmer's MOS

edit: also, there's a copyright claim on "Friends and Foes" at least for me?
 

Zhao Shen

StormSound
Well, I'll start out by acknowledging that this is only one track out of a soundtrack with much more material.

However, given what we've heard so far... What the hell. I was pretty shocked by the hero's theme the first time I heard it. I don't even think they used Tyler/Jablonsky-ish music as temp, because this is worse than either composer's work. I expected a lot more from Elfman, especially since he already helped deliver a pretty unimpressive score for Age of Ultron.

As much as the music of BvS, Thor, Iron Man, Wonder Woman, and other heroes has been criticized, this is undoubtedly the worst hero music I have heard. Maybe I'm being harsh, but the inclusion of "theme" in the title of a piece with absolutely no memorable aspects is a bit worrying...
 

Grizzlymv

Senior Member
:( ... Williams' Superman theme?... And then Elfman himself said he brought up his old Batman theme as well...what's happening?? They belong to a different world. Different style. The Superman in justice league (and man of steel and bvs) has nothing to do with Christopher Reeve's Superman... Same with Ben Affleck Batman. Nothing to do with the world and character of Michael Keaton's... Would probably have been different if JL would have been the first movie of this world, but Man of steel and BvS was there before and brought their own sound, themes and colors... I get the change of tone in JL but why throwing away it's theme for old ones that have nothing to do at all with this world? I mean musically it sounds good, although not memorable at all. But I really don't see the reasoning behind this. Would have taken the MOS theme revamped into elfman's color instead of that Williams theme... But that may just be me.. make me wondering what will happen with wonderwoman...will he bring the original one or the one we got in BvS and WW?... oh well. Kind of like doing world war 2 trilogy movies with saving Private Ryan music but in the last movie, change the score with The Rock themes instead...wouldn't work either...
 

NoamL

Winter <3
Jeez, without even reaching back to the golden age of movie superheroes... all you have to do is compare this to Elfman's own amazingly deft, exciting, brilliantly orchestrated and memorable Spider-Man scores of the early 00s. WTF is going on with the studios? Why even hire Elfman if you're going to instruct him to write those bramms like 3:12. He's a hundred times the composer this track makes him seem.
 

AlexanderSchiborr

Senior Member
Oh lol..I did listen yesterday to the second track..not to the first..one..was a long day, so sorry. So my initial comment is aimed to the second track Now I am listening to the first one..

It is painfully to listen to it for me even more when I know that Elfman had written it.

I can understand that J Guy and HZ doing this style of music but why hiring an Elfman to do impressions of that style. I mean the theme will for sure fit this generic expensive, probably forgetable hollywood movie, so everything is done in the right way and so that theme even blows my expactations in terms of temptracking job. See that is a composer who knows how to do a job.

The previous movies did have such a musical language, so why changing it. Don´t get me wrong: For my personal taste I am long long sick & tired of that music style, but not to blame Elfman or that music style, he does what the shitty producer and fucktard studios tell him to do and when he want´s to get his paycheck, he better should do what they want. Even when he features his own themes he features it like it is coming from a modern epic multiple award winning composer. Mission accomplished.

IT is a bit ironic because elfman was the one who worked or sais something about this 1 Dollar scoring thing and there was a big discussion here if he should be more responsible. Anyhow, I guess now he thought: Okayyy lets make a bit more than one dollar with that music that he probably doesn´t like himself but why not. It is all business, right. I saw this coming, even in Dark Shadows he was struggling to do his style where you could already hear how hard he tries to be modern. And that was a Tim Burton collaboration.

So if you want to make a living in hollywood you better do that stuff because you can´t do what you like to do in the old days, it is also with him. He has to pay his big mansions in the hollywood hills, don´t forget that.:rofl:
 
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Consona

Consona

Senior Member
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I mean the theme will for sure fit this generic expensive, probably forgetable hollywood movie, so everything is done in the right way and so that theme even blows my expactations in terms of temptracking job.
Well to me both Man of Steel and Batman v Superman are some of the most outstanding CBMs I've ever seen, the opposite of that safe hollywood formula... you can actually see how divisive those movies are, Snyder takes risks and is punished for that. But I love his bold movies.

For my personal taste I am long long sick & tired of that music style
The sound Zimmer created in MoS is far from the generic stuff other people do when they try to imitate him. He can make things fresh. MoS and BvS sounded different than his Batman stuff, which sounded different to his Spider-man stuff, etc.

Now Whedon is finishing Snyder's film, he replaced J XL with Elfman and I believe he has him word in bringing back the Superman theme that has nothing to do with this universe. Plus I don't think the rage against producers is justified since they let Elfman compose for this sequel to MoS and BvS in totally different manner than how those two films sounded. In a very classical manner which is close to him instead of pushing him to use Zimmer's sound and orchestration.
 

NoamL

Winter <3
Well to me both Man of Steel and Batman v Superman are some of the most outstanding CBMs I've ever seen, the opposite of that safe hollywood formula...

In terms of the movies, or the scores? The movies I think have been pretty bad, missed the point of Superman and weren't as fun as MCU films... but the scores were really good. Even as a JW superfan I can't see bringing back JW's theme for this universe. HZ's themes get closer to expressing the idea of this incarnation of the character. There's a lot of bizarrely grim sci fi tone in these films and not much simple "Big Blue Boy Scout" optimism to the character. HZ's themes with constellations of ostinatos happening at different speeds fit into that mood. The new Batman theme also expresses what this Batman's all about. He's grim, he's fucking incapable of compromise, he's literally a one note character.

The one bit of levity in MoS was the rollicking 332 rhythm theme. That's the composer seeing into the character better than the director, screenwriter, actor... that theme captures the aspect of Superman's character where he's worry free because... he's super.... he can fly, deflect bullets!

Here is Grant Morrison describing the famous cover of his run in Superman, inspired by meeting someone playing Superman at a convention - "The thing that really hit me, wasn't so much what Superman was saying as how he was sitting. He was perched with one knee drawn up, chin resting on his arms. He looked totally relaxed...and I suddenly realized this was how Superman would sit. He wouldn't puff out his chest or posture heroically, he would be totally chilled. If nothing can hurt you, you can afford to be cool."

all-star-superman.jpg


And that's what those confident, fun, rollicking drums are. Superman can kick ass if need be but he's totally un-tense. He's in the flow. There's no grim Batman orphan angst drama about Superman.

IMO the big problem with Man Of Steel was they never showed that side of Superman enough. They STARTED the entire cinematic universe by positing a whole race of aliens who can punch as hard as him and throw him all over the city, just so they could have Matrix Revolutions ish fight scenes.
 
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J-M

A glorified bedroom composer...
Too early to judge because the movie isn't even out yet...but the music is completely different than in the previous films. Dunno, maybe the the movie isn't as dark as the previous ones and the music reflects that? (I haven't watched any of the trailers)
 

AlexanderSchiborr

Senior Member
Curiously, what musical style would you love to hear in today's films instead?

Maybe music which carries a bit more the handwriting of a composer instead of just temptracking to death? It can be modern for good sake, but with Elfman created here a theme which could come from a random composer who does music for 2 years. Yes I heard themes which sounded equally good or bad..like the one from Elfman now..and that is alarming for me to see how painful it is to see even the great ones now writing a way under their capabalities.

In general I would like to see that big studios would allow composers more to do their own thing because a good composer has often very good instincts, ecpecially those who have experience over decades in scoring to picture, but cutting down creativity just to please investors (fuck them) and the audience and temp track to death creates no good soundtracks at all. And you can see such things all over the place.

Apart from that : Music, lets say the orchestral music is able to offer so much more of a a bigger color palette than just pounding percussion, a Lowbrass Wall of Death and Ostinato Cello / Violas playing 16th notes. Sure the writing has to be more sophisticated..when you use just another generic overused chord progressions and orchestrate it like in elfmans version, then you can´t make it far. You can cook with Salt and Pepper and that is fine but if that is the only ingredients then the food will always stay very limited in terms of variety. That would be for me a first step in the better direction. And what is painfully for me is and that is the whole point to see a great composer like elfman working a way under his capabilities temptracking other works to death in order to create a mediocre product. That is pure pain even for me, and I didn´t wrote the soundtrack for that movie. I don´t know how Elfman feels but the paycheck for that torture was pretty good I guess..definitely more than one Dollar!:rofl: Some of the more traditional composers, maybe also silvestri..have problems to move and show hollywood the middle finger, but that is exactly what they should do: Get the hell out of there.
 
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Grizzlymv

Senior Member
Too early to judge because the movie isn't even out yet...but the music is completely different than in the previous films. Dunno, maybe the the movie isn't as dark as the previous ones and the music reflects that? (I haven't watched any of the trailers)

To me that's not the issue. If the movie is lighter than the previous ones and needs lighter music, that's fine. That doesn't justify the replacement of existing themes by older from other movies/universes. I think they could have kept the themes from MOS and BvS to ensure continuity with that universe, but in a lighter, more orchestral way and could have worked fine. Not it will just feel strange to get the modern wonder women theme along with the old Superman theme and old Batman theme... Anyway. Change of tone fine. Change of themes no... Not if you are in a continuity movie like this...
 

Grizzlymv

Senior Member
In fact, that's one thing DC universe had right vs Marvel universe. Theme continuity. Each character had their theme and they would follow on the next movie even with a different composers. Wonder woman was the best example of this. Sad to see this come to an end...:(
 

jononotbono

Luke Johnson
nd show hollywood the middle finger, but that is exactly what they should do: Get the hell out of there.

And do what instead? Perhaps all of these composers love what they do and don't want to get the hell out of anywhere? I'm wondering, if you ever had the opportunity to take Elfman's place, whether you would give the middle Finger to Hollywood but in all honesty, it sounds like you already have without even getting there. haha!

I can only imagine how much fun it would be to work on such a high profile film such as this. We like what we like don't we. :)
 
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