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Embedding loops into samples?

Mike Greene

Senior Member
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Is there software that embeds loops into samples? And can Kontakt read this data from the samples, thus making it so I don't have to make loops in Kontakt?

I do use Keymap, which has a good (although not perfect) loop finding feature, but there are times that the loops don't get transferred perfectly when I load the instrument into Kontakt. (I think someone told me once that the loops are shifted by one sample?) So I have to check all these loops again in Kontakt, because errors are so frequent.

My other reason for exploring an audio editor that embeds loops is that if I later decided I wanted to trim a sample, or add a fade, or some other edit to the sample, the loop would already be there and I wouldn't have to do it again.

Now that I think about it . . . will Keymap embed the loops into a sample?
 
Keymap does write the loop points into a WAV file when you export an instrument and write new WAVs. However, if you load or revert to those loop points from Kontakt, the output loop point is usually one sample "late". This is due to various standards of describing the precise position I think. Kontakt has a command to shift all end loop points -1, which is useful for fixing this.

If you Export a Kontakt instrument from Keymap however, that Instrument has the loop points in the correct place. So Keymap does know how Kontakt prefers them, it's just a poorly defined specification within the WAV files themselves. (In fact, I don't think loop points are a firmly definied part of WAV at all, but bolted into the header in various ways.)

cheers, Dan
 
Here's the trick with Keymap and the .WAV loop problem:

Output to .AIFF. I talked to Andrea Gozzi about this ages ago, and that's what he told me to do. And it works perfectly, even if I then batch-process to convert those files to .WAV ... the loop points survive and are correct.

But for manual editing of loops/loop-points ... Sound Forge is the only way to go. The Windows version of Sound Forge. Dual-boot or use Parallels, because the Mac version is NOT the same (and is terrible).

And speaking of Keymap ... Andrea just joined LinkedIn, and his job title is "Software Engineer at Apple" ... so as per the speculation elsewhere, I guess he's still developing it, just in-house for Apple.
 
I do use Keymap, which has a good (although not perfect) loop finding feature, but there are times that the loops don't get transferred perfectly when I load the instrument into Kontakt.

So are you guys telling me that you can load your files into keymap and it will automatically put in the loop points that work perfectly when you're done? That is if you've got this off-sample thing straightened out.

Back in the old days I also used Sound Forge because it was the only software I had that would embed my loop points so that they would work with a sampler. However, I worked very hard and long at establishing the loop points.

Today I use Reaper to create my loop points and then use Wavosaur to finish it out and save it so it will work in Kontakt. It takes a lot of work but my loop points are perfect.

So are you guys saying you have a way of doing this automatically? :)

I'm a really old fart so it wouldn't surprise me. :mrgreen:
 
Not automatically, not for most waveforms anyway, but Keymap does have a lot of looping tools and tricks that are brilliant. I'm also an old fart and used to do it all by hand. ;)
 
Thanks guys! I didn't realize KeyMap could embed loops, so all this info will be a huge help.

To Tod's question, I agree with Dan (polypx.) KeyMap has some great tools and does batch looping, but you'll still have lots of work ahead of you to check which loops are good and which aren't. Where KeyMap really shines from there, though is that it's very easy to have it "try again."

Funny thing about loops, one of the hardest parts is figuring out how good is "as good as it can possibly get." If it's a synth we're sampling, then it's easy, because perfection is possible. But with vocals (and I'm sure other live instruments as well,) there have been so many times where I struggle with looping a particular sample that just doesn't want to cooperate. Maybe there's a timbre shift as she held the note, so I can't do a long loop. Short loops tend to sound less natural, so I *really* have to focus. If it's particularly challenging, I start wondering about maybe if I do the loop towards the end of the sample, people would rarely get to it anyway. But . . . that loop towards the beginning of the sample may not be perfect either, but it's better than the one at the end. Hmmm . . . maybe I should stick to plucked instruments. :mrgreen:
 
Aah okay, thanks Dan and Mike.

I've done a lot of looping over the years and it's always been a long, tedious and usually very difficult job.

I've finally gotten to where I no longer try to find that perfect loop point, I believe there are times when it simply doesn't exist unless it's like Mike says, is too short and doesn't sound natural.

Instead I'm creating 2 or 3 different tracks of the sample and simply crossfading them together and then use the same exact loop point which is actually the perfect loop point. That will give me longer loops and they sound a lot more natural. Of course you have the phasing of the crossfades but with multi instruments it's not that big of deal, it just blends in with the natural phasing. With solo instruments it can get a lot trickier.

Another little trick I use is to duplicate the track/sample and then reverse one of the samples. If you crossfade them and then find the exact zero crossing it will sometimes work. If not, you can duplicate the original track/sample again and crossfade them together in such a way that they sound natural and the loop itself will be much longer and sound more natural.

Lots of work though.
 
Hi,

just found this thread and I wonder if anyone knows if I can export .wav or .aif from Logic Pro X with the cycle points included in the file, so that Kontakt set the loop directly?
If not, any other DAW that lets me do this? By the way, any ideas how I still can get a license key for Keymap Pro? I am using a Mac, so many programs do not work for me.

Thanks.
 
Wow David, I've tried that and couldn't get it to work directly from Reaper to Kontakt. I've been taking the samples and loops I make in Reaper and loading them into Wavosaur to finalize the loops. And yes, I did include the "Markers + regions".

I've been using markers, not regions, which of them are you using?

I'll have to try this again, maybe my attempts were just a fluke. :)
 
You need to be exporting regions but if you have the SWS extensions installed you can convert markers to regions. I usually make my loops in EndlessWav and then when I import my samples into Reaper the loop points are already there as cue markers which I convert to regions after editing.

 
Thanks David, yeah, I just did some experimenting and found out it has to be regions and it's good to know. It'll save me one extra step.

That's going to change how I render multi sample projects. I've been using regions for quick rendering. Heh heh, I'll just have to figure another quick way of doing it. :)
 
Hi guys. All i know is that Sound Forge was the master tool for editing loops, better than other editor. Since i work now with Mac, Reaper is the answer, but short ago i was made aware of this software - Myriad. I don't own it and don't know if this work in a similar form, but here i let you with the information for you to dig in:

https://www.audiofile-engineering.com/myriad/


and from the manual: https://www.audiofile-engineering.com/myriad/download/MyriadUserGuide.pdf

myriad.png

Edit:

myriadableton.png
 
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Hi guys. All i know is that Sound Forge was the master tool for editing loops, better than other editor. Since i work now with Mac, Reaper is the answer, but short ago i was made aware of this software - Myriad. I don't own it and don't know if this work in a similar form, but here i let you with the information for you to dig in:

https://www.audiofile-engineering.com/myriad/


and from the manual: https://www.audiofile-engineering.com/myriad/download/MyriadUserGuide.pdf
I never got on well with Sound Forge, this looks great - https://www.audiofile-engineering.com/loopeditor/ - shame it's only on Mac
 
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