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Dorico playback: samples vs noteperformer

ok, i'll bite. staffpad is the leader in the space. by far. it's amazing that we're even comparing an iPad app with a 600 dollar desktop app.

Note performer sounds like… note performer, always. the drums are terrible. It’s better than midi, but not by much. I've never had anyone at the studio bring me a noteperformer output. I've used staffpad output in final mixes many times.

I agree that steinberg should have bought staffpad, but like... 9 years ago when they were starting to build dorico... heck imagine if they'd spent 9 years and an entire dev team improving the score editor in cubase.

anyway if it's so easy to build a playback engine like staffpad... why has no one else done it? are you able to do this symphony chart with dorico for iPad and note performer? or even the full 600 bucks dorico and thousands of dollars of libraries with hours of expression map programming and days of midi blob wiggling? to me staffpad sorts the men from the boys, if your doing academic music then maybe it doesnt work very well... but for the jobs i get paid for, it knocks it out the park.


StaffPad is leader in which space exactly? Crappy handwriting recognition? It is excelling on that front. It is a toy compared to what is required by the main audience of notation apps. And maybe neither Sibelius nor Finale nor Dorico focused on the playback because it was never the priority for a notation app? Thought of that? Not because it is some challenging technical problem only the geniuses at StaffPad can solve.
 
Staffpad is not the same audience as Finale/Sibelius/Dorico. Those apps added medicore humanized playback at some point..which StaffPad slays them at. But StaffPad is also not primarily geared towards typesetting and publishing printed music..that is what those programs are designed for.

I would put staffpad more into the class of compositional tools. I find all three Finale, Sibelius and Dorico to be absolutely cumbersome for that kind of exploratory process. The process I would use when I'm sitting at my piano with some blank staves, pencil and eraser. That is what StaffPad handles...and much better then those above three programs. I think its very fair to call it the leader in that space. StaffPad has some compelling features related to the process of "conceiving" of the musical ideas and sketching them out. That's what iPad'ing is all about. Sketching ideas. And StaffPad's humanized playback is way better than NotePerformer in the others... Way better. So for a humanized sounding musical sketch pad app....it is an unequaled leader really..nothing else can do it even close to as well. StaffPad is not a market leader typesetting program, but a long shot, and nor is it a market leader midi sequencing device (like DAW's) for absolute mockup control. it is a market leader in automatic humanized orchestral playback, combined with a tool that keeps the musical idea sketching very simple and straightforward, similar to as sitting at the piano with some blank manuscript and a pencil. It is a different space.
 
anyway, this thread is really about Dorico, so not sure why it's turning into StaffPad evangelism. The question is about using Dorico samples vs NotePerformer. In my view Dorico with sample libraries is NOT an automatic experience, its a highly technical experience similar to what has to be done in DAW's, but different from that too...but if you're willing to put in the time, the possibility is there to prepare music for printed purposes...and also being able to produce a pro quality mockup from the same project without having to export/import the data or enter it again in a DAW of your choice. I do not think Dorico's sample playback should be considered automatic. People will be spending untold hours trying to make it be that, tweaking their expression maps constantly, trying new sample libraries etc...but automatic humanized playback is not really being provided here...just a different approach to produce a final mockup with a lot of effort...from the same program being used to produce the printed music...which for certain users could become a time saver perhaps.

NotePerformer in Dorico is the option for while you're composing....automatic...great, doesn't sound as good as samples, even close.
 
anyway, this thread is really about Dorico, so not sure why it's turning into StaffPad evangelism. The question is about using Dorico samples vs NotePerformer. In my view Dorico with sample libraries is NOT an automatic experience, its a highly technical experience similar to what has to be done in DAW's, but different from that too...but if you're willing to put in the time, the possibility is there to prepare music for printed purposes...and also being able to produce a pro quality mockup from the same project without having to export/import the data or enter it again in a DAW of your choice. I do not think Dorico's sample playback should be considered automatic. People will be spending untold hours trying to make it be that, tweaking their expression maps constantly, trying new sample libraries etc...but automatic humanized playback is not really being provided here...just a different approach to produce a final mockup with a lot of effort...from the same program being used to produce the printed music...which for certain users could become a time saver perhaps.

NotePerformer in Dorico is the option for while you're composing....automatic...great, doesn't sound as good as samples, even close.
As a huge advocate of Staffpad, I have to disagree with the notion that Dorico is mostly for engraving. With version 4, I've found it very easy to move notes around, change things on the fly. Earlier versions weren't quite as fluid compared to StaffPad but the new Dorico is very transparent when it comes to supporting creativity and composing. I'm not dissing StaffPad but Dorico 4 made huge strides towards being a composition tool not just an engraving one like Sibelius or Finale.
 
please describe how. I find dorico's methods for entering music to be horrid sorry. If they changed something, please explain what they changed exactly. I am not motivated to upgrade it actually, on this point alone.
 
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Dorico is blazing fast compared to StaffPad for composing for me. StaffPad’s concept is interesting - but concepts only go as far as their execution. And that’s where relying purely on handwriting recognition has gotten StaffPad in trouble - if your writing isn’t recognized, you’re out of luck completely. There’s no alternative for entering notes - which is the MAIN point of a notation software. Once you learn Dorico’s key commands and popovers (even easier now with the Jump bar), you can enter notes at a speed I’ve never been able to in any other software (even a piano roll editor) - outside of playing it in, which Dorico also supports with great quantization options. Tuples, ornaments, dynamics, slurs, duplicating, exploding / condensing, swapping staves, etc etc - no way StaffPad is coming even close to the speed of input on Dorico. Add Flows to that to manage ideas, and you have a brilliant sketch pad - that can actually turn into a final product (unlike SP).
 
please describe how. I find dorico's methods for entering music to be horrid sorry. If they changed something, please explain what they changed exactly. I am not motivated to upgrade it actually, on this point alone.
Quite interested myself too...
 
Quite interested myself too...
I've created lots of short cut keys to move notes, copy them from bar-to-bar, invert, retrograde, shorten and lengthen note durations, move notes around the bar (the new insert mode allows this and avoids affecting other bars)... I've only been working with Dorico 4 for a few days but I've written a fair bit on it. Plus the keyboard entry helps at times for chordal things- you can play chords in and select multiple staves so you can automatically divide up chords into respective instrument parts. Pretty slick (this has been around for a few other versions mind you).
 
you lost me already at "lots of shortcut keys". I don't want to memorize a bunch of keyboard commands in order to enter music as I'm thinking about music.
 
you lost me already at "lots of shortcut keys". I don't want to memorize a bunch of keyboard commands in order to enter music as I'm thinking about music.
I don't want to argue - all you have to do is look at all my posts that laud StaffPad. I'm not dissing it- I think it's terrific. But I also think Dorico is great as well. I use both and would not want to be without either.
 
I am grappling with Dorico. I really want to use my many libraries with notation, and so I’m gonna beat my head on it for a while. So far, I’m pretty impressed and infuriated. The concepts for typesetting scores and parts are unsurpassed. The interface just requires practice. Mastering it will come in time. Now using it with third party libraries. . . ahem . . . that maybe another matter. There is nothing intuitive about setting up expression maps, and the documentation is nonexistent. It has promise, but I’m not completely sold yet.
 
Now using it with third party libraries. . . ahem . . . that maybe another matter.
I just finished up a Dorico template for Nucleus after seeing the one for BBCSO. I figured it would go pretty fast well 10 days later it's finished not with the help of the documentation thats for sure.
 
The pencil is still used despite having word processors or graphics programs. If I want to doodle some ideas I use a pencil. If I want to then develop these ideas I would probably go into a word processor or Photoshop. The latter have management features. This is what you want for larger projects.

I see a similar analogy between Staffpad and Dorico. The former is the pencil, the latter is the word processor with large scale management capability. Both have their uses. For me, I generally sketch ideas with a pencil on staff paper and then develop them in Dorico. I could use Staffpad for this but sometimes I just don't want the Dopamine hit of always working in a virtual world.
 
The Staffpad vs. Dorico discussion reminds me of the Ronaldo/Messi discussion from some years back :)

"Ronaldo's the GOAT"

"No, it's Messi! Ronaldo is Penaldo!"

etc.

Instead of just recognizing they're good at different things and we're lucky to have them both.
 
I think Noteperformer and Staffpad have shown that for notation playback it's probably better for it to be a bespoke sample playback system rather than relying on existing technology designed for DAW use. That seems like the future to me.
 
Now using it with third party libraries. . . ahem . . . that maybe another matter. There is nothing intuitive about setting up expression maps, and the documentation is nonexistent. It has promise, but I’m not completely sold yet.
It's fiddly for sure but that's because the DORICO teams Mantra seem to be Flexibility in all things !. I have a bunch of expression maps I have done that I can share for various Library's. It's honestly unsuppressed as a Score input DAW...you can do so much. The people who are down about I suspect just haven't got to grips with it. And yes like many I fell in love with staffpad only to realise the handwriting recognition was very very buggy. Again practice makes perfect but I really can't comprehend why someone is prepared to spent eons learning how to write music on an IPAD but not a few hours to master expresion maps. !!..baffling

Most of the detractors here haven't learned how to use it. And complain about "note entry" !!!! It's a fuck of a lot easier than writing with a plastic pen on an ipad !

Complaints of "robotic".. Seriously ? It's a daw. Does Staffpad play back Like Karajan ?..it's a computer....add expression !!!. To me playback in all three, Staffpad, Sibelius and Dorico sounds identical in terms of feel !. But with Dorico your midi ( the play page ) can be totally different form the score page. Nudge a note, easy. ALL CC is available and the tempo function allowing drawing will return very speedily .

EXPRESSION MAPS:

these are complex...can't deny it. But I disagree that they are impossible . This is the area where I suspect all options were discussed and in keeping with the Flexibility Mantra at the heart of the program there are multiple points where things need to be baked in. Because it's really the heart of having the score talk to your samples it's worth getting right. But once it's done...it's done !

so the first thing to realise is that ALL expresion map DATA needs to be saved in the ENDPOINT configuration and THAT saved in the template to be always recalable in ANY score. Otherwise what you have spent the week making will only apply to the Score you had open when you made them. Again...flexibility ! They where thinking you'd want different sounds for different scores !!!!

Jolly decent of them really:

As to how long it takes ?..How many samples to you want to use in any given situation? I went over the top and now most of my 10 year buying spree of samples is accessible by adding playback instructions in the score. But it's set up. I load VSL ensemble 7 ( takes 5 mins ). Launch DORICO. Pick a score and it's pretty much instant that ALL the samples are now there.

Note entry:

This is so simple I really can't understand anyone moaning !. Hit record, there's a click. And Play !

Quantizing is much improved and there's also Polyphonic transcription:



This is unreal !......so after doing a piano score you can select the various voices and assign them orchestrally !...so quick and easy

As to the various discussions about quality of sound..............well i've been told so I'll say nothing

Finally: There is the Steinburg forum: Pretty much any question is answered very quickly. Daniel seems to be on there continually and I've yet to post a question and NOT get a speedy response.

Best

ed





best

ed
 
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I think Noteperformer and Staffpad have shown that for notation playback it's probably better for it to be a bespoke sample playback system rather than relying on existing technology designed for DAW use. That seems like the future to me.
I would absolutely LOVE the playback transparency of StaffPad in Dorico. But, as many have said, this is not the path that Dorico is taking and I get it. Most times, I just export my Dorico files back into StaffPad for the nicer playback. Not too hard, especially now that SP is also on my M1 Mac Mini. Fun.
 
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