Alex Fraser
Requires ☕️
Just so I understand correctly: The networks want to take away the backend, but are not increasing the frontend payment to compensate?
Discovery Networks (& Netflix) Corners Composers in Music Royalties Battle
- Thread starter gsilbers
- Start date
JJP
Did you know Mike Greene owns a llama? 🦙
That's pretty much it. Be on the lookout for them to increase the front end fees to make it more enticing (and loudly proclaim their generosity for doing so), but never anywhere close to the equivalent pay composers traditionally see from royalties.
OP
OP
gsilbers
Part of Pulsesetter-Sounds.com
netflix is giving more upfront than normal and taking away back end. they are trying to teach composers that they wont get that much in the back end in streaming. so it will be a good chink of money but only poeple who have been getting royalties for large project might know better the amount.
they have also been courting minority composers.. which is a double edge sword , helping out women and minorities but at the same time its a demographic who would likely take these deals.
discovery has not said anything but im guessing theyll pay a bit more... but not that much imo.
OP
OP
gsilbers
Part of Pulsesetter-Sounds.com
yes.. it always sounds nice and think we can do something but so far we havent done anyting with royalties with streaming. its been more than 10 years that all these sales poeple from the studios where charging netflix and amazon the same lciensing fees as big broadcaster but in turn they pay much less royalties. always sounds nice... for more than a decade we have all been complaining, and moved on to the next sample library. but it sure sounds nice.. just like a 19year old wears a che guevara t shirt and says we should all be "equal"..and "corporations are bad like in a nice made up eutopia. in the real world there are a few kinks to this.
your union musicans in LA that complain about this issues and deals got something.. but its a small group and the rest of about 90% of prodcutions in LA go to european orchestras who charge a reasonable rate and get consistent work.
There is a LOT of composers. like a toooooooon more. incredibly so. becuase its global now. and very talented w great tools. there is basically NO negotiation. they plain just wont call you and move on to the company who will do it. you thik the big composers are on board? what do you think happened to alf clausen? hans zimmer took that job.. aka bleeding fingers... for exactly this same reason. they lowered the cost of the music by using a company willing to charge less.. bucause fox is looking on ways to lower costs in the age of streaming. not that HZ is bad.. he just got the gig (or wheomever is the sales guy at bleeding fingers). thats how hollywood works on most of the non-AAA movies.
ive been doing my part.. you can see 10 years worth of posts in gearslutz and this forum sayign about royalties... and how streaming giants just bullshit us into thinking streaming doesnt make money while ive seen those licensing contracts and how they compare apples to apples vs broadcasters... its been a loooong time coming... no one cared... everyone argues... they razionlize it , say its streaming etc.
so sign up to that vanacore thing? sure.... ill learn about the stuff i already knw... but just as uber can just deactivate a driver who is protesting... fox/disney/netflix will just find someone else.
dont get me wrong.. im not in the side of netflix etc... im just being realist cause i saw this at fox and the spanish dubbers when they tried to ask for a raise and unionize... they went w another dubbing house. but in brazil for example they have laws against this.... and good union laws.. which we dont have. so its the reality of free market and an overabundance of composers who just rather check out the next spitfire library. but im open ears to see what actions can be taken.. and ill be on board.. just trying to mention the reality of the situation
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Patrick de Caumette
Senior Member
Corporations have been taking over the world for the last century and a half.
Don't expect them to care nor to respect laws that they easily manipulate.
They will keep taking what is not theirs until the people fight back.|
Time for a revolution!
Don't expect them to care nor to respect laws that they easily manipulate.
They will keep taking what is not theirs until the people fight back.|
Time for a revolution!
xguitaristx
Never trust the living
xguitaristx
Never trust the living
I think the ideal solution would be for composers to refuse these kinds of contracts until Netflix/Discovery re-think their approach. Unfortunately, there's some straight up desperate people out there that will give in to this horse sh$!.
Maybe this really is the inevitable start/future of large production companies using stock music, instead of hiring a real composer. First it's no royalties, then it's no composers.
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charlieclouser
Senior Member
The up-front fee would have to be 4x-5x the standard per-episode fee in order for it to even begin to be tempting, and even then it would feel like a "fuckit, I'll be dead in two years, let's have a fire sale" price.
We all know the only solution here is for composers in the US to unionize. Bloody hell, we’re the only ones without organization in this business.. we need collective bargaining rights before the situation is too fragmented to rescue if it isn’t already.
The ironic thing is that this board is a good starting point for a movement. And of course, nothing happens without the big players.
The ironic thing is that this board is a good starting point for a movement. And of course, nothing happens without the big players.
The problem is that upfront payments have gotten so low that that's where we are now, and producers have a skewed sense of our price. I suspect most producers never really knew how much was in the backend (I, for one, made a point of not telling them), so they just assume composers work really cheap. So in their minds, throw those composers an extra 10 or 20 percent and they'll be happy as pigs in slop!
Patrick de Caumette
Senior Member
For a union to be effective and have a chance, we need all top composers to agree to threaten to pull out and stop working for the industry until a collective bargaining agreement is reached.
There will always be people willing to work for nothing, but a drastic reduction in film score quality would be enough of a threat for studios/networks to want to sit down and talk.
I don't think a Marvel or Disney production would go well with a semi pro score...
But are the AAA list composers ready to stand up for all of us?
If they did, they would certainly have a great pull on the rest of us in order to unionize and fight this unstoppable trend.
Our entire profession is at risk...!
There will always be people willing to work for nothing, but a drastic reduction in film score quality would be enough of a threat for studios/networks to want to sit down and talk.
I don't think a Marvel or Disney production would go well with a semi pro score...
But are the AAA list composers ready to stand up for all of us?
If they did, they would certainly have a great pull on the rest of us in order to unionize and fight this unstoppable trend.
Our entire profession is at risk...!
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JJP
Did you know Mike Greene owns a llama? 🦙
That may not be entirely accurate from what I have seen over the years. The top composers don't represent the bulk of the work out there, and they operate on a different plane than those doing the kind of work for people like Discovery. It's a bit like how the bulk of SAG/AFTRA negotiations aren't about how the big stars like Tom Cruise. The bulk of the negotiations are over things like stunt people, minor actors, background singers, and other roles which make up the vast majority of their membership.
Having big names on board helps any movement, but the real power comes from the average folks pulling together to have collective power in numbers. Big names are more willing to throw their weight around once they see that everyone is already moving in the right direction.
However, big names can be very valuable in helping others in their field to rally around the cause!
All of the talk of needing a union as the answer, while I don't disagree, it's been tried in the past. For it to ever happen will take time. Time is something we don't have right now. This will be decided very soon. So, it's one thing to make broad comments and hope someone else will solve it. But at the end of the day, the one thing each person here can do is say NO to one of these deals if presented to you. It's really that simple. It may be more painful for a newer person to say NO or to see why they have to, but it's essential or we'll never get this moment back. I've personally turned it down at Netflix several times just on principal. The $$ they were offering for the buyout was tiny, but honestly even if it was good I will still say no until the bitter end. So, don't pass the buck here or wait for someone else to solve this. We have many composers here and at Perspective, many more than we'd have at a union meeting. So just do your part and fight for what you believe in. If enough people push back, this horrible business decision by Discovery and I'm sure many more to come, can still go away. But if this is the norm, I guarantee we will never get it back. And speaking as someone who's been around for a while, if some of you younger composers don't know the potential value of royalties - please talk to someone who does. The value is hard to see when you're struggling to put food on the table, but trust all of us, they are worth fighting for. We must stick together in this to have any chance of changing this....
goalie composer
Active Member
In this day and age of public shaming and IF your information is correct, maybe this individual should have their name revealed for all to see. If we speak up, fight back and go extremely public with this issue (and single out the individuals responsible) we may be able to fight back. The current climate would seem to favor this approach. I am NOT advocating for doing anything illegal or dangerous, but I do believe that if specific people are attempting to take away our collective right to make a living, the world should know who they are. Just a thought.
OP
OP
gsilbers
Part of Pulsesetter-Sounds.com
Discovery Faces Backlash From Unscripted Producers After Shift in Series Payment Process
Discovery Inc. is facing a backlash from the unscripted production community following a shift in the cable giant's protocol for paying for series programming.
variety.com
More than one producer reached for this story pointed to the contrast between tightening production expenditures and Discovery CEO David Zaslav’s blockbuster $129.4 million compensation package for 2018 (the vast majority of which is tied up in stock options that will only pay out if Discovery’s shares hit ambitious performance targets).
The CEo is pushing for all the cuts and wierd pay for shows...
and seems he is hitting them since 2014
Mega Payday: Discovery CEO David Zaslav Earns $156.1 Million for 2014
Discovery Communications CEO David Zaslav received an astounding $156.1 million in compensation last year, the company disclosed Friday in a Securities and Exchange Commission filing. The vast majority of the windfall comes from more than $144 million in stock awards that Zaslav received after...
variety.com
and not only discovery but he seems to be well connected that if it works, then other channels might follow
Zaslav serves on the boards of Sirius XM Radio, Inc., Lionsgate Entertainment, the National Cable & Telecommunications Association, The Cable Center, Grupo Televisa,
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Patrick de Caumette
Senior Member
That may not be entirely accurate from what I have seen over the years. The top composers don't represent the bulk of the work out there, and they operate on a different plane than those doing the kind of work for people like Discovery. It's a bit like how the bulk of SAG/AFTRA negotiations aren't about how the big stars like Tom Cruise. The bulk of the negotiations are over things like stunt people, minor actors, background singers, and other roles which make up the vast majority of their membership.
Having big names on board helps any movement, but the real power comes from the average folks pulling together to have collective power in numbers. Big names are more willing to throw their weight around once they see that everyone is already moving in the right direction.
However, big names can be very valuable in helping others in their field to rally around the cause!
I totally agree that for change to take place, the vast majority of composers needs to be on board.
However, when you are taking into account the number of big productions that are in the hands of a few top composers, the pressure that needs to be applied from our end in order to get reform can only be applied if those composers are applying the pressure as well.
And it is not very enticing to be militant when one is very comfortable...
To be honest, considering some of the underscore going on in those shows, and the lowest common denominator that seems to have become the norm in the vast majority of cable TV programs, the pressure applied at a lower level will not have much weight, since it would be very easy to do away with composers and make deals with the many libraries music companies out there that have significant catalogs and who will not hesitate to make deals in order to stay in the game.
Not to mention the AI powered applications that are slowly but surely coming into competition with us.
It is interesting to notice that the problem that we are experiencing is also starting to affect many other professions.
Signs of the times
Make America great again...NOT!
chillbot
Sock Muppet
As someone who has provided the underscore for the music for a lot of these shows, not sure if I should be insulted. No worries, I'm not.
Hey, composers are not going to get a union, they just aren't. It's been debated for as long as I can remember. But there is a force working against this and I would encourage joining, sorry @goalie composer already mentioned but worth mentioning again.
https://yourmusicyourfuture.com
The article floating around from Variety is a direct result of this group and I see it's been posted a dozen times to various FB groups with a lot of chit chat and jibber jabber. That's a good start anyway.
