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Composing directly in 5.1/ 7.1 / Atmos... the 2021-2022 Thread!

Oh man, yeah, the height channels are amazing. Its incredible how much space there is. True full range. I loved hearing the difference without them. The studio I was just working at has 26 PMC speakers and is a 9.1.6 set up. Its quite a thing. There's also a one of a kind analogue mixing console designed by Paul Wolff that allows audio to be panned into any speaker without software (there's also no pan law with the panners). Where a typical EQ section is in a mixing console, its actually a Panner section. Custom designed frame to hold all the upper plane and surround speakers. Its also been designed to instantly switch between Atmos, Auro3D, Sony360 and everything Surround and below which is why there are so many speakers. They are all in their exact positions for each format. Everything has been calibrated by Dolby.

Its basically all completely ruined audio for me, in the sense that I no longer lust after speakers. I realise I will never be able to afford some PMC XBDA QB1s ($200k each... They have 5 (2 x Left 1 Centre 2 x Right) although when buying at this end "family" discounts are likely 😂) so I now just pretend what I have is good. Except for my LCDX headphones. They are truly great.
I think I know what studio and console that is.... :whistling: The "FIX" console, right? Very cool thing.
The best thing I experienced was Sony360. It was literally the best thing I have experienced sonically. I had an amazing time with someone called Gus Skinas and he stuck some tiny microphones in my ears to take a measurement/snapshot of my inner ears and he measured the room and he basically played a mix of a track that was massively exaggerated with panning (you know, Bass Guitar in far rears, drum kit hard right, stuff that the human ear isn't really used to) just so everyone could hear where everything was (if you're not used to listening to music like this its definitely an interesting experience to start with and some people hate it). The test was to listen to the track through this monitoring environment and then Gus handed me some headphones and there is literally no difference between the monitors and the headphones. And when you remove your headphones, because you are in complete disbelief that a pair of shitty headphones could sound identical (not a little bit like, or something is slightly different) but EXACTLY the same, there is no audio coming from the monitors and you suddenly realise the audio is just the headphones.
I want that Sony thing. Is it a zillion dollars?
As for the mix of Rocket Man, I'd have to check with the engineers. At the time it was very much a "Jono, get the fuck over here and listen to this. And this. And then half a day of guinea pigging someone (me) that had never experienced immersive audio like that before and I just forgot to even ask. I'm not surprised that Greg Penny has been booked up for the next 2 years. Covid has literally held back Atmos so badly. I knew Apple were going to launch Atmos on all their devices (which is incredibly clever) about a year before it happened and Apple were also going to release a subscription service "Atmos Music" (songs/classic tracks - not Atmos for Cinema) which has now finally been launched but its free (obviously I am only saying stuff that is all public knowledge now as I don't want to be hunted down with a pack of dogs 😂). And for good reason. Atmos will be a total failure if the public don't get behind it and the only way the public are going to get behind it is if they can at least try it. And the public are not gonna be buying anything just to try it, so Headphones and a free service (on the tech they already own but didn't realise they already had Atmos capability) was a smart move.
Greg started just remixing Elton's catalog for him but when the labels heard the results they basically just opened the vaults and said, "Start at Abba and let us know when you get to ZZ Top". So the entire Sony and Capitol back catalogs are in his inbox right now! They've been grinding on it for three years and there's no end in sight. He loves it too, it's just him and his son in two huge rooms in an industrial park in Ojai - no artists knocking over mic stands, no label bigwigs dropping by. Sounds like heaven actually.... Interestingly, their rooms are almost completely untreated. Both are just huge cubes of truss work with speakers and absorptive panels hanging from them, but outside the cubes it's just a huge concrete warehouse. All Dynaudio speakers.

I heard the PMC Atmos demo at NAMM and I did not like the speakers (too "clanky"), but that was in one of those temporary listening rooms the throw up at the trade shows so I can't really blame PMC. Their big skinny stacks that Tommy Lee has sound god-like, but at $80k per stereo pair they'd better! But the Genelec Atmos demo at NAMM was in free-field and sounded beautiful using all "The Ones" speakers. 8351b across the LCR, 8341's for all the immersive, and a pair of 7380 subs. Wow do they sound great. That demo is what's got me looking in the direction of The Ones.
 
I know everything already became way more accessible, but since there are so many industry insiders in this thread, would anyone mind to please help me to understand why for example the Dolby Atmos Production Suite isn't available on Windows, why there's no real Atmos binaural in Nuendo or why I can't simply listen to Atmos (binaural) through the Tidal app on my Windows PC? Will this change anytime soon? Are there technological hurdles or is this rather related to some business deals?
I don't have any real information on that, but it would not surprise me a bit if Apple strong-armed their way into some deal with Dolby that prevents (or delays) Microsoft from being able to license the tech.

If I was Tim Cook and sitting on $200 billion in cash reserves, that's what I'd do... at least if I couldn't just buy Dolby outright. The fact that Logic has what appears to be the Dolby Atmos renderer built-in... FOR FREE.... is bonkers.
 
I was just working at a pretty big studio that specialises in Immersive Audio (Auro3D, Atmos, Sony360 and everything in between) and got to hear original Elton John Rocket Man Stems remixed in Atmos and the whole album Kind of Blue Album (Miles Davis) remixed in Atmos. A very interesting experience for sure. Can't wait to one day have an immersive set up but man, you gotta have a decent sized room. Also, Nuendo 11 and its multi panner is killer ;)
I heard about that. they used the same studio where they recorded those albums, placed speakers to reamp and capture the room sound so its both mixed and atmos and feels like you are in the same room with them.
 
I know everything already became way more accessible, but since there are so many industry insiders in this thread, would anyone mind to please help me to understand why for example the Dolby Atmos Production Suite isn't available on Windows, why there's no real Atmos binaural in Nuendo or why I can't simply listen to Atmos (binaural) through the Tidal app on my Windows PC? Will this change anytime soon? Are there technological hurdles or is this rather related to some business deals?

Well, maybe it has something to do with the dolby building and the avid building being a few minutes from each other and both in california where apple has a strong presence. Most, if not all studios in Los angeles only use mac and pro tools for post.

I know the main talk right now is how behind pro tools is with an easy atmos intergration after logic pro launced their version. so it seems like a big expection for the next pro tools update.

Its still the early days of atmos and everyone is confused. Apple wants to push it to beat spotify in the music service and distributors want to offer a better movie experience in the home entertainment world.
And apple doesnt even call it atmos and push it for their headphones. Ive heard mixed reviews of the quality of these atmos mixes. And i just learned theres a sony spec!

I know studios spending a gazliion in updating more rooms for atmos and its a big gamble if the specs change or you dont need that much hardware. Or netflix or another big player decides to drop atmos all together.

I think now everyone is trying to figure it out. Theres also back end licenses all these companies have to pay to use the tech, not only to implemented into their software but the gear distributors need to make the deliverables, like IMF, pro res for their amberfinn rigs or digital rapids, which might be expensive or too new or not enough demand except for a select few. Imaging being the developer of those apps and suddenly dolby changes something big cuz of apple or something. or the competition comes out with a new and easier way to stream or who knows. a lot of invisible webs we dont see right now. which sucks.
 
I think I know what studio and console that is.... :whistling: The "FIX" console, right? Very cool thing.
It is indeed. Some photos at various stages of helping to put this studio together. The console arrive in parts and we assembled it in the studio.

building desk.JPG

paul wolff desk shot.JPG

desk 1.JPG

desk jono selfie.JPG

desk jono selfie 2.JPG

I want that Sony thing. Is it a zillion dollars?
I have no idea about costs on that man. All I know is it was amazing. :)
Also I forgot to add. Although Sony360 is a headphone format, this magical ear measuring software allows for people mix in their immersive set ups and it will translate perfectly to cans. I'm just saying that in case anyone reads any of this thinking its a format that you must only use headphones with.
 
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I‘m about 2 years in 5.1 Surround. And just recently upgraded to 7.1 and then swiftly to Atmos, actually only 7.1.2.
It’s great fun, it’s really a joy to work in and hear your composition and productions in surround/immersive.
But mainly I do it for the joy of it. Reality is still, that your work is most likely consumed in Stereo or Mono than anything else. If you are smart with setting up your template and you are wise with your placement decisions the downmixes work in any format. Nobody has time to do a separate Stereo, 5.1, 7.1, Atmos mix. At least at my (low) level. For me it just slightly increased the time it takes to finish a cue, I can justify it with the fun I have with it.

I did 2 TV movies this year, one was Stereo, one in 5.1. But the music was delivered in Stereo stems.

Also did a student film and was responsible for the sound/foley/music and final sound mix in 7.1.

So there seems to be some demand. But they don’t pay extra for it, again not at very high level in the industry. Still studying at the Conservatorium. So take everything with a grain of salt.
In my experience sounddesign is more in need of surround than music.

I often do sound as side “hustle” to get the composition gig. I don’t know if it would be that good of an idea if you only compose and don’t find any enjoyment in the enhanced sound.

From a business perspective at my stage it was big investment that doesn’t pay of. I hope the experience and skill will pay of in the long term.

Another thing about the whole Atmos and immersive world is that it completely changes the rules of mixing in some ways. It’s really exiting as everyone is trying to figure out how to mix in Atmos. Besides how to set up the Dolby Atmos render, there is almost no information on how to mix in this format. It’s like the wild west again. I like that, Stereo feels so boring to me now.

On the other hand, I had the director of the previously mentioned student film in my studio for the final mix. I switched between 7.1 and Stereo. He couldn’t hear the difference… so yeah… Consumers don’t really care. And to be honest my sound system for my beamer was dirt cheap and only one monitor is working for over one year. I live together with a Composer/Producer, nobody cared to buy a replacement. That might be because all our money is in the studio.

Really excited to hear the experience of others members of this forum.
What is really crazy and groundbreaking about ATMOS, for example in the case of logic pro x is that you can actually mix ATMOS with your headphones, using the Binaural Simulation, so no need to purchase the 2 million dollar speakers, you can mix your beds and objects with headphones, and when you bounce your ADM BWF file the wav file will keep the properties of the Atmos file (11 channels ) pretty dope all this on LOGIC pro with the latest update (free).

So in other words wether you have Airpods pro (set with Atmos Spatialization), or multi-channel 7.1.4 equipped theater, your mix from Logic using Dolby Atmos will automatically get spatialized over that network of speakers.
 
So in other words wether you have Airpods pro (set with Atmos Spatialization), or multi-channel 7.1.4 equipped theater, your mix from Logic using Dolby Atmos will automatically get spatialized over that network of speakers.
@CyberPunk
you can use any headphone for that. AirPods (max and pro) give you dynamic head tracking though - but Logic does not support this with its binaural audio output.
In any case, mixing immersive music is something I can recommend for every logic 10.7 user to experiment with. if nothing else, it's great fun.
 
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The Dolby Atmos Music Panner is Mac only, does that make Atmos on PC a non-starter? Or is there another way I am missing?
 
@CyberPunk
you can use any headphone for that. AirPods (max and pro) give you dynamic head tracking though - but Logic does not support this with its binaural audio output.
In any case, mixing immersive music is something I can recommend for every logic 10.7 user to experiment with. if nothing else, it's great fun.
Yeah,
 
Anyway, if my deliveries solve the problem as-is, then... great. But if they don't, what am I gonna do? Sit there on the stage and complain that the explosions are drowning out my precious symphony? That's no way to make friends. And I've had plenty of situations where the music editor has taken snippets or zingers from one cue and laid them across a different cue to solve some problem. Huge relief to have them solve the problem on the stage, on the day, rather than have me scramble to slap a band-aid on the thing. On my last project the music editor took 30 seconds of a pulse+drums bed from one cue, and used good old Serato Pitch-N-Time to speed it up from 110bpm to 122pbm and pitch it down three semitones. Sounded fine, problem solved, note addressed, scratch that one off the list.

Ever since I started doing this whole film scoring thing I’ve been able to tell when the music editors are putting the cues together and it seems like they actually do a ton of work, usually it’s something like a slowed down/sped up theme or crossfading between different cues used in other parts of the film. It’s an interesting thing to take note of because we usually give all the credit to the composers but the music editors seem to be the ones doing most of the picture work, which to me is like 80% of the battle
 
My biggest question that I still can’t find a solid answer for is what interface you all are using for more than stereo? Or are you using a sound card instead? That’s been my biggest concern
 
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