Best software for an aspiring composer

[theaviv]

I'm an aspiring composer. I love classical music. I've been using MuseScore on Ubuntu. Here's a piece I composed:




Good playback is important to me, and I am considering getting

(1) a Mac (I refuse to use Windows, which is why I use Ubuntu)
(2) Sibelius subscription (which cannot run on Ubuntu)
(3) NotePerformer (which cannot run on MuseScore)

I know Sibelius in combination with NotePerformer will give me very good playback, but are there any other options you would recommend?

I am also wondering how I could go about creating a better mockup than the Sibelius and NotePerformer combo? Is it possible to create a mockup that is comparable to or even better than what a live orchestra can record?

I understand I have 3 options when it comes to mockups:

(1) NotePerformer (with Sibelius or another compatible scorewriter)
(2) learn how to do the painstaking work on a DAW
(3) hire a pro to do the painstaking work of creating the best possible mockup

Is it possible to export a MIDI (from Sibelius or another compatible scorewriter) with NotePerformer's interpretation? I figure it would then be possible to import the MIDI into a DAW and use a better sound library to create a better mockup.

Would I have any use for EastWest's ComposerCloud, Vienna Symphonic Library, or Overture 5?

What would you advise an aspiring composer who is currently using MuseScore on Ubuntu and is concerned with very good playback and sharing very good mockups?

Click to read more...

 

[Willowtree]

I know Sibelius in combination with NotePerformer will give me very good playback, but are there any other options you would recommend?

I use neither Sibelius nor NotePerformer, so I can't give any advice on this, however I've heard Sibelius' documentation is lacking, at least compared to Finale, which may be a bit of a hindrance for a beginner. That information may be quite outdated, however, seeing as it was a decade ago I heard that.

Is it possible to create a mockup that is comparable to or even better than what a live orchestra can record?

Depends on what you mean by better. If you're using sample libraries, you can compose things that you may prefer to how it would sound if played by an orchestra. A lot of composers are disappointed when they discovery their lush, loud legato strings sound much quieter and a lot thinner as performed by live musicians.

Likewise, plenty of composers are disappointed when they find that their very fast, loud and aggressive spiccato part is barely audible over the woodwinds and brass.

However, no mockup will compare to a live recording in terms of sounding like an orchestra. Because it's not a live orchestra, it's recorded snapshots of a performance, pieced together to create music.

They can sound pretty darn close these days, though, (compared to 20 years ago) but it does depend on the music you're making as well as the resources you have available.

Is it possible to export a MIDI (from Sibelius or another compatible scorewriter) with NotePerformer's interpretation?

I don't use NotePerformer, but as far as I know, this is not possible. Or, I've never heard of such a function at least, nor seen anyone use it.

Would I have any use for EastWest's ComposerCloud, Vienna Symphonic Library, or Overture 5?

Most certainly, if you want to create more realistic mockups. I'd strongly recommended trying ComposerCloud if you're just starting out. It'll give you an idea of what working with sample libraries is like.

Remember, it's easy to get into buying a lot of sample libraries you never end up using. I myself spend frequently spend hundreds of dollar a month on sample libraries and it's really not something I encourage, so getting into ComposerCloud may help you ease into the world of sample libraries, so to speak.

I've never heard of anyone creating realistic mockups using Overture 5, and as far as I know it's not something the software specialises in.

What would you advise an aspiring composer who is currently using MuseScore on Ubuntu and is concerned with very good playback and sharing very good mockups?

Not knowing your budget, I'd recommend picking up a DAW with a workflow you like (demo them!), and subscribing to ComposerCloud. Then, spend money wisely on sample libraries you need to fill in the gaps.

This is what I wish I could've done when I started out. Of course, back then, ComposerCloud wasn't an option, and sample libraries were far more expensive than they are now.


If you have any more questions feel free to ask or send a DM. I'll reply once I get the chance.

 

[mducharme]

Good playback is important to me, and I am considering getting
(1) a Mac (I refuse to use Windows, which is why I use Ubuntu)

Yes, you will as a practical matter need a Mac or Windows to get the level of playback you want.

(2) Sibelius subscription (which cannot run on Ubuntu)
(3) NotePerformer (which cannot run on MuseScore)

I know Sibelius in combination with NotePerformer will give me very good playback, but are there any other options you would recommend?

This playback is not "very good" but is instead "good enough to get an idea of the piece and the balance". NotePerformer output is not going to be suitable for generating an MP3 from notation software as the finished product. If every piece you write is going to be performed, and you just need to get a sense of how things sound before the performance, NotePerformer shines there. But if you want to get, say, film scoring work, or you want someone to use your piece in something (say as background music for a YouTube video or just for listening pleasure) notation software with NotePerformer won't cut it.

Is it possible to create a mockup that is comparable to or even better than what a live orchestra can record?

No. But most listeners who are not musicians are so used to the sound of sampled orchestras (and have heard so few live ones) that they are fooled by newer more advanced libraries, and fooling them is often good enough.

I understand I have 3 options when it comes to mockups:

(1) NotePerformer (with Sibelius or another compatible scorewriter)

Not really an option if people besides you are going to be listening to the "mockup." You can't send a director NotePerformer output if working on a short film.

(2) learn how to do the painstaking work on a DAW

This is the only viable option, and this is what everybody does. It is part and parcel of being a commercial composer in the modern day.

(3) hire a pro to the painstaking work of creating the best possible mockup

Not viable - if you keep having to pay someone to do mockups of every single piece you aren't going to get enough money from the composition work that you do to make it worthwhile.

Is it possible to export a MIDI (from Sibelius or another compatible scorewriter) with NotePerformer's interpretation? I figure it would then be possible to import the MIDI into a DAW and use a better sound library to create a better mockup.

Yes, but in many cases it is faster to play it in via your DAW. You get lots of extra CC garbage exported from notation MIDI output that you have to delete. The cleanup work can take a while. IMO there is very little point in starting with notation if that piece is never going to be performed by an actual ensemble.

The only negative aspect of composing into the DAW is that you can more easily lose the vertical aspects of the arrangement (since playing things in line-by-line tends to lead to more horizontal thinking) but this can be remedied with proper workflow.

Would I have any use for EastWest's ComposerCloud, Vienna Symphonic Library, or Overture 5?

The first two, yes. Overture? I would avoid notation programs made by a one-man operation. If they decide they don't want to make it anymore, or are unable to make it anymore, then the software likely receives no updates and after a few OS upgrades you can't run the program anymore. Sibelius or Dorico are your best bets if you need notation, but you only need notation if real live performers are going to be playing your pieces.

What would you advise an aspiring composer who is currently using MuseScore on Ubuntu and is concerned with very good playback and sharing very good mockups?

Notation programs are never going to give you good enough mockups. There is also no point in working in notation if it will never be performed by actual human musicians. Go to Mac or Windows, get a DAW, learn how to mock up in there and how to mix.

 

[d.healey]

Kontakt will run on Ubuntu, as will Reaper. With those two things you can make your mockups sound as good as anyone else's - but keep in mind that a large part of getting a realistic mockup is not software, it's skills and experience.

If you want a good mockup then you have to put in the work and time or hire someone to do it for you. You won't get something realistic from any notation software. Notation and performance are two different skills and the software that is great for one is not so great for the other. My approach is to use notation (Musescore) for composing and Ardour (or another DAW) for performing mock-ups.

 

[mducharme]

Kontakt is not officially supported on Linux according to NI webpage:

Specifications

www.native-instruments.com

Google searches show that it can run on WINE. I've used WINE before on Linux for a few small odds-and-ends apps but I don't think I would want to depend on WINE for such critical software, and would be concerned about performance. If you run into issues you are unlikely to get assistance.

Besides, there are some great Kontakt libs out there, and most of the libs I use are Kontakt based, but do you really want to limit yourself to only Kontakt libs?

 

[Dewdman42]

I think for music a Mac is a good idea for you and shares a lot of Unix stuff you are used from Ubuntu. I’m a huge fan amp f note performer, not a huge fan of Sibelius. I’d look at dorico first combined with note performer.

getting into kontakt and more sophisticated sample libraries may be where you end up eventually but it’s a long journey and I like your idea of starting out with a notational program and note performer

 

[theaviv]

I think for music a Mac is a good idea for you and shares a lot of Unix stuff you are used from Ubuntu. I’m a huge fan amp f note performer, not a huge fan of Sibelius. I’d look at dorico first combined with note performer.

getting into kontakt and more sophisticated sample libraries may be where you end up eventually but it’s a long journey and I like your idea of starting out with a notational program and note performer

Thank you.

Dorico looks good but NotePerformer only has beta support for it. Also, more known issues are listed for Dorico (6 issues) in comparison to Sibelius (2 issues).

Sibelius seems to be the most popular choice. Why do you prefer Dorico?

 

[theaviv]

Is it possible to export a MIDI (from Sibelius or another compatible scorewriter) with NotePerformer's interpretation? I figure it would then be possible to import the MIDI into a DAW and use a better sound library to create a better mockup.

I received this answer from Wallander Instruments, the company behind NotePerformer:

Hi Aviv!

I'm afraid the changes we make are internally in our software. And the operations we do on a note-by-not basis are a lot more advanced than MIDI events. We control the envelope of each note individually, also down to the attack/release.

If you export MIDI from the notation software, the MIDI you get will be the MIDI that -inputted- into NotePerformer, by e.g. Sibelius. So it will contain our articulation switches, but nothing else unfortunately.

Best regards,
Arne
Wallander Instruments

I now understand the best way to create a mockup in a DAW is to play all the parts by hand using a MIDI (keyboard) instrument. That way, the interpretation is exactly the way you want it. Do you all agree?

Would Logic Pro X be a good choice?

Not knowing your budget, I'd recommend picking up a DAW with a workflow you like (demo them!), and subscribing to ComposerCloud. Then, spend money wisely on sample libraries you need to fill in the gaps.

This is what I wish I could've done when I started out. Of course, back then, ComposerCloud wasn't an option, and sample libraries were far more expensive than they are now.

I am thinking of getting a Mac with Logic Pro X and subscribing to ComposerCloud.

How long do you think it would probably take me before I am able to create industry-grade mockups/orchestral tracks?

getting into kontakt and more sophisticated sample libraries may be where you end up eventually but it’s a long journey and I like your idea of starting out with a notational program and note performer

Would I need Kontakt if I have ComposerCloud? How do the two compare?

 

[Living Fossil]

How long do you think it would probably take me before I am able to create industry-grade mockups/orchestral tracks?

If you're working hard, i'd say 5-10 years.
It takes several years for the ear to learn hearing one's own stuff in a somehow "objective" way in regards to production technique (and of course also compositional aspects).
Of course, there are exceptions, people who learn extremely fast and get in 3-4 years to a impressive level. Usually, those learned to play an instrument at a very early age and are very young when they start producing music.
However, to keep things realistic: most people don't reach "industry-grade", for several reasons. One question is always if the voice of an aspiring musician/composer is industry compatible at all.
Then again, in the industry you can sometimes find music that is definitely substandard.

 

[theaviv]

If you're working hard, i'd say 5-10 years.
It takes several years for the ear to learn hearing one's own stuff in a somehow "objective" way in regards to production technique (and of course also compositional aspects).
Of course, there are exceptions, people who learn extremely fast and get in 3-4 years to a impressive level. Usually, those learned to play an instrument at a very early age and are very young when they start producing music.
However, to keep things realistic: most people don't reach "industry-grade", for several reasons. One question is always if the voice of an aspiring musician/composer is industry compatible at all.
Then again, in the industry you can sometimes find music that is definitely substandard.

Let's say I'm working with Logic Pro X and ComposerCloud.

Let's say I take an existing composition - like Karl Jenkins' Palladio (my favourite classical piece) or one of the movements from Vivaldi's Four Seasons (which is in the public domain like so many other great classical pieces) - and I try to create a really good mockup, like a track that could be used in film or a videogame.

I don't see why it should be so difficult? I would use a MIDI keyboard instrument to record all the parts, choose the right virtual instruments from ComposerCloud, and make whatever other sound adjustments necessary to produce a finished product. Am I missing something?

I think I should be able to learn how to do that within a couple of months give or take, no?

 

[Living Fossil]

I don't see why it should be so difficult? I would use a MIDI keyboard instrument to record all the parts, choose the right virtual instruments from ComposerCloud, and make whatever other sound adjustments necessary to produce a finished product. Am I missing something?

That's what i meant. It takes several years for one to see (or: to hear) why it is so difficult.
The more you improve, the more you hear what's missing.
(The Dunning-Krueger effect, while not being exactly the same, deals with similar phenomena)

p.s. i don't think you will believe me now, it would be untypical. But maybe you think back at this post in 5 or 10 years...

 

[Willowtree]

I now understand the best way to create a mockup in a DAW is to play all the parts by hand using a MIDI (keyboard) instrument. That way, the interpretation is exactly the way you want it. Do you all agree?

I agree that it's one way to do it, and perhaps the most intuitive. Generally, I'll either play them in with one hand, entering CC data with the other, or I'll draw both the MIDI and CC data in the piano roll, depending on what I'm doing. Often, I'll do both.

I'd also recommend a breath controller and pedal (to control CC data). For some libraries, they're essential.

Would Logic Pro X be a good choice?

I am thinking of getting a Mac with Logic Pro X and subscribing to ComposerCloud.

I'm not on Mac, so I can't comment on Logic Pro X, but a DAW and subscribing to ComposerCloud sounds like a very solid start.

How long do you think it would probably take me before I am able to create industry-grade mockups/orchestral tracks?

Years, for sure.

Would I need Kontakt if I have ComposerCloud? How do the two compare?

ComposerCloud
ComposerCloud is a subscription service and depending on which subscription you choose you can get all of EastWest's libraries for commercial use. If you end the subscription, anything you've made with the libraries are yours to keep, but you can no longer keep using the libraries. They use the PLAY Engine, which is EastWest's own sampler.

Kontakt
While Kontakt comes with a lot of samples, they're fairly outdated. So, why'd you want to get Kontakt? So that you can use third-party Kontakt libraries (such as those by 8dio, Embertone, Light and Sound, Waverunner Audio etc). This can be confusing for beginners.

There's two forms of Kontakt libraries: Kontakt Player libraries, and regular Kontakt libraries. The former doesn't requite Kontakt, only the free Kontakt Player. The latter require the full version of Kontakt.

Essentially, if you get Kontakt, it opens up a world of excellent third party libraries you would otherwise only be able to use in demo mode, even if you've purchased them.

Would you need Kontakt?
Eventually, perhaps. ost of us use Kontakt regularly. Almost all (as in at least 90%) of the sample libraries I own are Kontakt libraries. Though, the content in ComposerCloud should keep you busy for a long, long time, though.

I don't see why it should be so difficult? I would use a MIDI keyboard instrument to record all the parts, choose the right virtual instruments from ComposerCloud, and make whatever other sound adjustments necessary to produce a finished product. Am I missing something?

I think I should be able to learn how to do that within a couple of months give or take, no?

Because you're going to have to learn how to use MIDI CC Data to enter realistic dynamics, expression, release times, legato etc (depending on the library you're using). You'll also need to learn to make use of keyswitches, and essentially you're going to have to learn to phrase each instrument like a musician playing that instrument would phrase it.

It takes a long time to learn that for each instrument. Years, easily. However, don't let that discourage you. It's part of the journey, and it's honestly great fun.

 

[theaviv]

First, I want to say thank you to everyone for all the detailed answers. It is greatly appreciated. This is helping me make an informed decision - and also learn more generally about how professional composers work.

It takes a long time to learn that for each instrument. Years, easily. However, don't let that discourage you. It's part of the journey, and it's honestly great fun.

I'm sure it would be a fun and worthwhile journey. I imagine it would help me train my ears and become quite knowledgable about all the instruments and the nature of sound in general.

This is the only viable option, and this is what everybody does. It is part and parcel of being a commercial composer in the modern day.

But I'm just wondering if composers like Karl Jenkins, John Williams and Howard Shore bother to play with DAWs and create mockups?

Would you need Kontakt?
Eventually, perhaps. ost of us use Kontakt regularly. Almost all (as in at least 90%) of the sample libraries I own are Kontakt libraries. Though, the content in ComposerCloud should keep you busy for a long, long time, though.

So you're saying Kontakt offers better sounds than ComposerCloud and is more of the industry standard?

 

[mducharme]

But I'm just wondering if composers like Karl Jenkins, John Williams and Howard Shore bother to play with DAWs and create mockups?

John Williams certainly doesn't, Karl Jenkins most likely doesn't, Howard Shore I'm not sure. Williams and possibly Shore might have an assistant create mockups for them. Jenkins is for the most part not a film composer so why would he have to do mockups?

Back in the 1980's and before it was the case that directors would just hear the composer and an assistant play the cue for them on two pianos so they could get an idea of the sound, and so there was no such thing as a mockup, but those days are long past. It's been the norm for at least 20 years now that directors would get to hear synthesized renditions of cues before they are recorded, or at least of the main theme. And many are unable to look beyond the sounds you are using, if they don't sound very good to them then they worry the final product might be like that.

 

[mducharme]

Another thing related to that - the "polish" (production) of what you send a director (even as a mockup) is really important. Perhaps you can write music 10x better than composer Y. However, suppose composer Y is excellent at production/mixing/mastering and has really great sounding libraries, making his/her music sound more "polished", and it works well to picture. If you don't have very good libraries and your production/mixing/etc skills are not up to snuff, in most cases composer Y will get the work instead of you. Writing "better music" means very little when the polish on the finished product isn't there.

 

[Willowtree]

But I'm just wondering if composers like Karl Jenkins, John Williams and Howard Shore bother to play with DAWs and create mockups?

@mducharme covered this pretty well.

I'd like to add that most younger composers use mock-ups extensively. Some (including many successful composers) use mock-ups almost exclusively, though most will include some amount of live recorded instruments (particularly vocals or solo instruments).

However, composers like Shore or Williams often (or typically) orchestrate their scores themselves, so a mock-up may not be as useful. If you're working under pressure and you prefer to notate and it's going to be performed anyway, and you're orchestrating it, a mock-up may actually prove a waste of time.

So you're saying Kontakt offers better sounds than ComposerCloud and is more of the industry standard?

Kontakt on its own certainly doesn't sound better than ComposerCloud, though there are a couple gems in the library it comes with (I've never used them, however). You'd rather get Kontakt so that you can get third party libraries to use in it, and there's a very diverse market for that.

It's very much the industry standard sampler. However, ComposerCloud gives you access specifically to EastWest's sample libraries. You don't need to purchase any third party material. You subscribe, and you can access their libraries for as long as you're subscribed.

Essentially, if you get Kontakt, you're going to have to go out of your way and purchase third party libraries to use in it, and it can be very costly when you're starting out. Do they sound better than EastWest's instruments? Well, that's a matter of opinion, and it depends on the developer.

Here's a non-exhaustive list of some developers that make third party Kontakt libraries:
8dio, Embertone, Waverunner Audio, Light and Sound, Soundiron, Impact Soundworks, Orange Tree Samples, Chris Hein and many, many others.

(I'm not affiliated with any of these companies).

 

[Blackster]

The more time I've spent as a composer, the more I realized that the tools are not that important! Tools are just tools, nobody who is going to pay you will ask you if you've used Cubase or Logic, Spitfire Libraries or Berlin Libraries ... pick whatever sounds good to your ears and learn how to get the most out of that! ...

I'd spend way more time and energy in investing in yourself so you find some great unique selling points that you can use to your advantage over the competition. Because if you are not different, you have to be cheaper.

 

[Jeremy Spencer]

nobody who is going to pay you will ask you if you've used Cubase or Logic,

True, but it does happen. I almost lost a gig once because a director came into my studio and was baffled that I didn't compose with Pro Tools (yes, believe it or not!). It also helps to be somewhat fluent with Pro Tools, as most editors request session files in that format.

 

[Willowtree]

True, but it does happen. I almost lost a gig once because a director came into my studio and was baffled that I didn't compose with Pro Tools (yes, believe it or not!). It also helps to be somewhat fluent with Pro Tools, as most editors request session files in that format.

I once had a student I was tutoring lose respect for me because I didn't have "brand loyalty" and used three different DAWs. Then again, he also was uncomfortable with the fact I was a Windows user.

@theaviv, as @Blackster stated, despite how often many of us talk about the tools, focus on getting more tools, spend way too much mone on them (I'm guilty of all three of these) it's really you, the composer, who matters in the long run.

Yes, fancier tools will have more advanced features and yes, it's a huge part of your sound. However, the absolutely most important thing (when it comes to the quality of your music) is you. Your skills as a composer, arranger, orchestrator, produce etc.

A skilled composer can make a lackluster library sound good. And an unskilled composer won't get much use out of that New Fancy 2000 Gb 10 mic 50x RR 100 dynamic layers string library with divisi and 40 different legatos and .... okay, okay, someone please make this, I will ignore my own advice and spend all my money on it!

Jokes aside (hint: it's only half a joke; I would buy it), it's easy to get caught up in what tools to use, but seriously, if you get a DAW and ComposerCloud, you'll be absolutely fine for years to come. If you decide to go the Kontakt route, you'll be fine too (though expect to shell out quite a bit more money at first).

If you decide to pursue this, I really look forward to seeing your progress here on the forums over the years.

EDIT: New Fancy String Library wasn't exaggerated enough, there we go!

 

[rudi]

But I'm just wondering if composers like Karl Jenkins, John Williams and Howard Shore bother to play with DAWs and create mockups?

People like John Williams et al have got such a great catalogue of outstanding music, proven track record, huge talent, deep experience, and the odd Oscar or two (or more) . They have worked with some of the greatest directors and orchestras. They are in a different league

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Williams