What's new

Why Jazz sounds borderline musical to me

Allegro

Active Member
I do realize that the word musical is subjective.
Not trying to post negative things but trying to figure out why I can't understand it and why some people love it. The only two places where I find Jazz good:
- For in-depth music theory understanding
- Porn (because it is better than silence and stays in the background for you to focus :mrgreen: )

I feel bad for missing such a musical color from my life that others seem to enjoy. There are some old and childhood jazz songs that I am okay with. I am generalizing things a little but you get the idea.

To me personally, it sounds like this:
- Corny.
- Random, most of the time.
- Not too memorable
- A little too dissonant,
- Doesn't grab much attention, other than the rhythm part maybe.
- Goes nowhere, just moves in circles. unresolved.
- Sometimes, it sounds as if someone is forcing a musician to improvise at gunpoint.
- A lot of popular jazz progressions build up tension and then just leave you there. Even a progression back to your root sounds like you're in the middle of nowhere, thanks to those 7ths.

So here is my question:
What do you like about jazz or your favorite jazz songs (other than the fact that they aren't the same pop progressions)? How would you describe the feeling that you get from classical as well as modern jazz?
 
I think in similar lines. It's when you rely heavily on feeling and simpler structures, and accentuate motifs and specific rhythmic structures that jazz gets interesting to me - just like New Orleans Jazz! Or when it's great interplay between some instruments, like solo dueling and stuff. Love that as well. But overall, I kind of do agree and see where you're coming from with these arguments... Maybe we need to listen to more famous jazz? :)

W.
 
Of course, there are many styles of jazz, from Dixieland, to big band, to be-bop, to Latin jazz, to fusion, to pop, to acid jazz and so on.

If it sounds corny, random, dissonant, not memorable and wandering, I'd guess that you're just hearing the surface and haven't immersed yourself enough to soak it into your subconscious.

Not long ago, I heard some Chopin and found the piece to be so dainty to be almost comical. I then set up some Pandora channels for that style and listened to it for hours. After a while, I began to appreciate it more and more. That was a couple of years ago. Funny thing is that I heard some Chopin the other day and found it to be as out of place as ever. It's just not of our time. I'd guess that if I listened to an hour or so of it, I'd get back into the Chopin groove.

In my early 20s, I tried to get into jazz, and found there were lots of aspects that just didn't make sense to me. I was probably 40 before it all fell into place for me.

I took a class from Peter Alexander where we started by composing for solo orchestral instruments. It was illuminating to write with no rhythm or harmonic structure to hold the piece together. My main takeaway was that music is a tension between known patterns and randomness. Play it too safe and it's boring. Add too much complexity and it sounds random. Find the right balance and it's magic.

Jazz uses the rhythm as the glue. It's often (but not always) simple and generally repeats. That allows other aspects to add so much complexity that it can cross into randomness - if your ear doesn't have a feeling for what to expect or what pictures the dots and dabs are painting.

Ken Burns did a documentary on Jazz that is excellent. It explores many styles and provides a context in which the music is anything but corny. You might find some artists that resonate with you (and surely others that don't.) In the meantime, you'll fall into the story and forget you're listening to the music so it can soak in.

Have you seen Whiplash? It's a great film and has some fantastic, powerful big band music that is beautifully recorded. I can't recommend it enough.

And then again, maybe jazz just isn't your thing.

For me, it's Sibelius. I find most of his pieces so dull and predictable that they hurt my head. Maybe I need to meditate and get into an open state before listening to him. Then again, I might just be wired so that his music hits me wrong.

And it could be that way with you and jazz. This isn't a case of "not being sophisticated enough" for jazz. Maybe you'd like some of it with more exposure. And maybe it's just not your cup of tea. No problem. There are so many great styles of music our there that there is something for everybody. :)
 
i love the harmonic structure of jazz. from my childhood on i were touched by songs from burt bacharach, henry mancini, jobim... long before i knew who they are or what they did there. i had the vinyl of djungle book with the beautiful film music and songs which i heared in heavy rotation. later i listened to sinatra, george benson and all that new stuff later diagnosted as 'fusion' and 'smooth jazz'. at that time it was new and tasteful!

i'm also not a big fan of this kind of 'sport'-jazz... faster, higher, 'hiii mom!' and those endless hours of real book jazz without fun in the eyes of the players and fossilized structure didn't help to keep jazz alive. music dies when people know 'how to do it'! that's why i always loved the sophistically arranged side of jazz. and that's the reason why i became a composer and arranger.

for me a lot of classic, pop and 'trailer'-film stuff is just too predictable, 'glassy' or 'block-like' (if that means something to somebody). that is no quality question. it's just that a maj7-chord touches me much more than a major chord. for me it's the difference between boiled white rice without salt - and paella!

and this is not corny and random, but it's jazz:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCnf46boC3I&list=PL_jrKrBTmTmCGTsebdJCxGgjt2gL3XAhA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCnf46b ... jt2gL3XAhA)
 
A lot of words

I think the jazz he's talking about is the New York/Popular/core one. Fusion, Bebop and all of those are subgenres, or rather other forms of jazz (without actually calling them jazz, except for their influences and jazz approach).

Jazz is a weird word when you say it over and over again.

W.
 
I would tell you what I like about jazz, but I don't think it's worth it, based on your initial post. When you say something like, "I only like this music when it's used like wallpaper in a cheap movie", you're making a damn fool of yourself: get to jazz school and come back to us when you've gained a little class.
 
Hi

As a jazz musician it's obviously upsetting to hear when people don't like or understand jazz, but I am always happy to convert people :). The issue for you is that jazz is hitting you as one big lump of sound, and you cannot organise any of the sounds, structures, themes etc that are going on. Like listening to a foreign language. Reason for this is that jazz is extremely complex, so it can be hard to decipher what is happening. Anyway, I could harp on about this for ages, but don't have the time, so my recommendation would be to get this book:

https://www.amazon.com/What-Listen-Jazz- ... or+in+jazz

Hope that helps.

PS No jazz musician would describe the music in porn that you define as jazz, as jazz, by the way.
 
I totally understand why people might not like jazz at all! Totally get it.

What I DO like about the jazzy thinks I listen to is usually a specific mood, that I just don't get from anything else. It's usually mildly sad to melancholic and somehow at the same time maintains a certain deep-rooted coolness.

I guess the feeling I get is that: an older person, with a really rich life experience, who suffered a lot, is talking to you about life, and, you know, somehow still maintains a positive attitude in spite of all the f*cked up things that happened.

As an odd example: I LOVE the music of the Charlie Brown Christmas Episode. It's soooo sad (which of course on the other hand makes it soooo funny). I also like a lot of Nina Simone's stuff.

And there's a playlist on spotify called 'midnight jazz', I think, that has a couple of tracks that transport very well that feeling that I tried to describe.

But there's a lot of jazz that I can't stand, too!
 
When I was a teenager I loved orchestral pieces with lots of action and "epicness" to them, like John Williams or Stravinsky. I found Bach and Mozart pretty boring ...
That completely changed, once I learned pieces by Bach. Today I am an admirer of both Bachs and Mozarts art.
What does that tell me? Be a little more modest, when you talk about what you like or dislike. After all, we are in the hipster age, where narcism based upon personal preference without any background rules! Earn your disapproval of a well established art form by studying it thoroughly. I bet, in the process of that, you will change you attitude towards liking and disliking in general.
 
I too have struggled with 'getting' jazz. But the guys around me who are into it are generally smarter than me... and better musicians.

My conclusion is that I am just not a good enough musician to really understand jazz. Although, I do appreciate and enjoy it.

SillyMidOn said:
PS No jazz musician would describe the music in porn that you define as jazz, as jazz, by the way.
This ^ ^ ^
 
What does that tell me? Be a little more modest, when you talk about what you like or dislike.

I firmly disagree. Everyone has the right to passionately dislike whatever he/she wants, even if there are millions who love it. There is no moral rule that says: You only have a right to dislike things if you studied them carefully.

I, for example, dislike every single song of Lady Gaga very much. Do I just have to take a deeper look at them? Will they reveal their deeper secrets if I spend more time listening to them? I don't care! I don't want to listen to them, I think they are trash.

And face it, guys: jazz or orchestral music are not any more 'noble' than lady gaga's stuff. All music is there in the world for the same purpose, and that's entertainment.
 
I am a snob, but at least I don't make fun of music I know nothing about. There's nothing wrong with broadening your understanding before writing such a provocative post, unless one is Republican. :wink:
 
When did learning/going to school before having a public opinion become elitist? And you don't have to go to any school really, maybe there are enough classic jazz videos online, articles, interviews, etc. A little humility, and respect for one of the great musical genres helps too. I have no problem with some people hating jazz, but in this context, it was the way that it was communicated that rubs me the wrong way.
 
Hi Allegro,

regarding the No 2 Place where you find Jazz good. This music is not Jazz. It's called Fuzak. A hybrid of Fusion and Muzak.

Disclaimer: I am nor a musicologist or xxxpert.
 
When did learning/going to school before having a public opinion become elitist? And you don't have to go to any school really, maybe there are enough classic jazz videos online, articles, interviews, etc. A little humility, and respect for one of the great musical genres helps too. I have no problem with some people hating jazz, but in this context, it was the way that it was communicated that rubs me the wrong way.
It doesn't, but that's not people continually tell me on this forum. I have no problem with people needing to know something about a subject before having an opinion, or at least one that should be taken seriously, but that seems not to be the prevailing view here, so I'm glad to hear you say it, particularly as we come from very different areas of the musical spectrum.

D
 
Allegro,

Firstly, I would not categorize Porn music as Jazz. I would consider it Porn music. Secondly, Jazz is a loose term in how you are using it because there are quite a few different eras of Jazz. Like you said though, Music is subjective to the listener. I am an American and Jazz is very much an America musical genre. I grew up listening to it so in a way, I am accustomed to it, especially in In fact, it is one of the few things we can consider originally made in the America. It draws on influences from all over the world. If you are interested in wanting to open your mind and musical palette to Jazz, I would suggest you take a Jazz History course, especially if you live here in the U.S.

I grew up listening to a lot of Rock and R&B which are descendants of Jazz. Pop and Rap descended from Jazz as well. If any of those genres excite you then you might want to do some more research into Jazz history because you honestly might be surprised in some of the music you find.

One of my personal favorite albums is Miles Davis' "Kind of Blue." This is one of the best selling jazz albums of all time. It is Modal Jazz which is pretty self explanatory. My grandfather loved this album which meant I had to listen to it a lot as a child so really this album holds a certain nostalgia for me since he has long left this Earth years ago.

I've been pretty closed minded towards a lot of genres in my day, especially towards 12-tone/atonal orchestral music. When I actually started studying it and reading/listening to what the composers were doing, I found an appreciation for it and it has also found a way to allow me to grow as a composer. If you are into the creative game of writing music, don't be too close minded as you might surprise yourself in where you find the biggest inspiration to write.

Best,

Chris
 
Everyone has the right to passionately dislike whatever he/she wants, even if there are millions who love it. There is no moral rule that says: You only have a right to dislike things if you studied them carefully.
this is completely ok when you are a music consumer. it's absolutely open to you what you like and dislike. and just ignore what you dislike.

but i think if you are a musician you should see this different. you should be open in any direction. at least in an intellectual way. you will never be a good cook when you ignore vegetables. even if you hate them. you don't have to like everything but you should be open to look for the qualities in there. that concerns all kind of music (though i understand your reservations against the snob attitude often spread by 'educated' jazz and classical musicians).
there's no music that has nothing to do with every other music.
 
Top Bottom